Beguiler: How important is having all 20 levels?

[charleskoz]

Every time I think about doing a "dip" on my beguiler or considering that the class has a seemingly "big draw" at level 20: cloaked casting that overcomes any amount of SR. This is a big step up from the mere +2 you get at level 8. And presumably if you don't do all 20 levels in beguiler, you don't get it.

But I don't have any experience with the class. Is this ability as good as it sounds?

Thanks.

[weenog]

This is the sign of a well thought-out capstone ability.  It leaves you uncertain.  It's attractive enough to make you seriously consider staying single-classed for all 20 levels, but not so must-have that doing anything else is unthinkable.

Ignoring SR completely is badass.  Even more so when you're dealing with something that has magic immunity that functions as SR: Infinity.  But it's not so phenomenally powerful that you're screwed if you give it up, if you're getting something else sufficiently badass in exchange.  It also comes late, so it won't be useful to you for as long as something nifty you picked up earlier (like telepathy 100' from a Mindbender dip for the Mindsight feat at 6th level).

[Tshern]

Beguiler spells tend to allow SR, so that is a drawback. However, unless I am mistaken, the game you were in (if this is the same one), you were using another casting class as well, so things like Assay spell resistance might be on the table.

At level 12 or so I tend to make sure I have a certain way of adding at least +5 to my original (12) caster level to deal with spell resistance if I must. Wizards can do this wonderfully, as can Sorcerers. What kind of access do you have to CL boosters?

[X-Codes]

Because it's a Beguiler, yes.  Other spellcasters can simply use "SR: No" spells or Assay Spell Resistance against creatures with high SR, but Beguilers generally don't have those luxuries.

The question is, are the capstone and the class features you get along the way enough to warrant taking those 11 levels inbetween 8 and 20.  For most people, the answer to that is a pretty flat "no."

[Tshern]

Because it's a Beguiler, yes.  Other spellcasters can simply use "SR: No" spells or Assay Spell Resistance against creatures with high SR, but Beguilers generally don't have those luxuries.

The question is, are the capstone and the class features you get along the way enough to warrant taking those 11 levels inbetween 8 and 20.  For most people, the answer to that is a pretty flat "no."

This again. Assuming, however, that this is for the gestalt game that appeared here before, he might have ready access to Assay spell resistance, which kind of makes the capstone ability redundant.

[charleskoz]

Yes this is my Beguiler//Erudite. I like the Beguiler, but I am still thinking about starting with a first level in something else, and maybe using some prestige classes later. So I like the "capstone" (nice term!) ability, but I find it "confining".

There really is not much for beguilers (except for spell advancement) between levels 10 and 20....

[Tshern]

Also, depending on your starting level, Mindsight from Mindbender could easily be worth it. Not sure what your starting level was, but you can get Mindsight from level 6 and 14 levels would be a long road. Just saying.

[Rebel7284]

Well what PrCs were you considering?  If it's something like Shadowcraft Mage or Incantatrix, then hell yes you should PrC.  If it's a single Mindbender dip, perhaps staying beguiler makes more sense.

Edit: also, are you likely to play all the way to 20?

[Mixster]

Because it's a Beguiler, yes.  Other spellcasters can simply use "SR: No" spells or Assay Spell Resistance against creatures with high SR, but Beguilers generally don't have those luxuries.

The question is, are the capstone and the class features you get along the way enough to warrant taking those 11 levels inbetween 8 and 20.  For most people, the answer to that is a pretty flat "no."

This again. Assuming, however, that this is for the gestalt game that appeared here before, he might have ready access to Assay spell resistance, which kind of makes the capstone ability redundant.

Assay spell resistance does take an action to cast though.

But yeah, 12 levels for that ability isn't that amazing when you can pick up loads of cooler abilities around the different tricks.

Losing caster levels is generally viewed as blasphemy (not the spell). But it wont matter much when your other side is StP Erudite.

[CantripN]

You could always retrain to Beguiler 20 at level 20, or just before that.

[Tshern]

Well what PrCs were you considering?  If it's something like Shadowcraft Mage or Incantatrix, then hell yes you should PrC.  If it's a single Mindbender dip, perhaps staying beguiler makes more sense.

Edit: also, are you likely to play all the way to 20?

Also, now whe I think of it, he could take the Mindbender dip at the Erudite side as well...

[charleskoz]

Thanks for all the replies! You guys are great.

Mindbender: I assume the point is just to take one level for the Telepathy ability? Going beyond that means losing manifester levels. :/

"Shadowcraft Mage or Incantatrix" -- can't do those.

My Erudite is not StP.

We're starting at level 1 and are likely to go to 20 (possibly with some "teleporting" of levels in the middle.)

[weenog]

Thanks for all the replies! You guys are great.

Mindbender: I assume the point is just to take one level for the Telepathy ability? Going beyond that means losing manifester levels. :/

"Shadowcraft Mage or Incantatrix" -- can't do those.

My Erudite is not StP.

We're starting at level 1 and are likely to go to 20 (possibly with some "teleporting" of levels in the middle.)

Yeah, you don't take more than 1 level of mindbender unless you're trying to suck on purpose.  You're just there for the easy qualification for Mindsight.

[Tshern]

Since you start at level one, I most definitely propose a dip to the Mindbender on either side of the build, perhaps more preferably on the Erudite side.

[Lycanthromancer]

Wouldn't the Magic mantle effectively make you a StP erudite? But without some of the benefits?

[Shiki]

A note on Beguiler and taking all 20 levels.

[rant]

Whenever I look at the Beguiler table, I cannot help but wonder: why would I bother not PrC'ing out? Let me explain:

Armored Mage: Yay you can now cast while wearing a Mithril Breastplate or something similar. Like AC matters all that much anyway.
Trapfinding: Decent.
Cloaked Casting: The boost to DC is okay but nothing to die for, and overcoming SR w/ it is made redundant by taking 10 levels of Rainbow Servant (Assay Spell Resistance!).
Surprise Casting: It's A Trap.
Advanced Learning: The best you get from this class. Made redundant by taking 10 levels of Rainbow Servant though.
Silent Spell: Made redundant by buying a damn metarod.
Still Spell: 10 levels to get this? Really?

At least you get a shitload of skill points to qualify for PrCs worth something.

Anyway, did it looked like I made a big deal out of the Rainbow Servant PrC? What sane Beguiler wouldn't want to add an entire HUGE-ASS spell list to his or hers? Advancing spellcasting at every damn level as per the text? Like, insane. Plus you get some domains, why not? and freakin' wings, okay. Dip Mindbender and take Mindsight because you totally can. Even awesomer than before. Go on w/ non-racist Shadowcraft Mage because it's also awesome. Finish it w/ Incantatrix. Like, really?

[/rant]

Carry on.

[awaken DM golem]

Friends with Half The Benefits ...  



1h) Elemental Envoy = good enough at level 1, retrain away at level 6 for the Psicrystal
1) Imprint Powerstone
1b) Chameleon Crafting from Dr#349, you qualify for it.
Start flipping Arcane stuff over to Psi, and dump into Repertoire.

7) pick PsyRef power and a nice "talk" with the DM about how you know every power/spell.
But you're almost a full level down compared to the rest of the party,
because of all the powerstones + learning you're doing.

This is all you need on the Erudite side. Keep PrC levels at or below 6.
Beguiler capstone ought to work with psi PR. It absolutely works with Magic Mantle.
And you'll have all those juicy PR powers and SR spells.

So long as Erudite 17 casting levels happens, (Mindbender works here)
you can go non-casting with the other 3 levels.

[Hallack]

I love the Beguiler, perhaps my favorite class (competing with Factotum). 

I say the BIGGEST consideration on going pure 20 is how much time you will spend with that level vs benefits you could gain by prestiging out.b  Another consideration is what sorts of foes are most likely. 

If the game is likely to wrap up soon after or even as you hit level 20 then the level is less critical.

This is especially true since you will be having to overcome SR well before level 20 anyways.  I doubt you'll not be taking steps against SR before 20. 

I played a Beguiler with one level dip into Shadow Adept and gained huge benefits from the associated feats.  Mindbender as mentioned is another very nice one dip. 

Cheers

[skydragonknight]

I'm a fan of Fatespinner for Beguiler personally - even the fifth level. Something super beefy comes along? Test it for mind immunity with Distract Assailant. If it's not immune, then toss a nice +15 DC (+5 spin and -10 penalty) Dominate on that sucker and welcome a new party member. Nat 20? You can make them reroll with another Fatespinner class feature.

[Bigtuna]

Not a fan of gestalt - so don't know much about that - but pure beguiler:

Depending on how many levels you "teleport" - if you have to play the beguiler all from 1 to 20 I would drop into a prestige class dip ASAP - bumping your advanced learning a spelllevel. (shadow adept is a nice easy dip)

rainbow servant (if text trumps tabel) offers a HUGE return - but loses much of the beguiler "feel". Could be nice if you enter it and then "teleport" through all/many of those levels that's really just waiting to gain the capstone ability...

binder1/anima mage 10 - gives a lot of extra option - which with the right vestige can enhance the beguiler abilities - while keeping the beguiler "feel". - AND their SU abilities don't care about SR.

Prestige bard (UA) adds a lot of nice spells to your spelllist - at a cost of a CL - again more options, more fun.

Think about what you can do from lvl ~15 and up with pure beguiler and then compare with comboes of the above...
personally I don't want to wait for a amasing capstone ability if it means I have to suffer for a few levels.