Author Topic: Cleric Tank  (Read 3027 times)

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Bard

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Cleric Tank
« on: July 25, 2011, 11:42:05 AM »
So... our DM sorta killed our druid for being too much annoying after he used SNA and Greenbound Summoning to cast 6 entangle in a round at level 5, leaving there afterwards 6 summons that were sorta CR 8 or something like that.
Long story short, I need some help to optimize a build for a tanking cleric. Starting level is 6 so it doesn't need to be playable before that, but I was going for the 20 lvl progression.
The general idea is a Cleric, Prestige paladin 2, Bone Knight 10 to get nice saves and immunities.
As far as feat goes, Serenity from dragon compendium reduces MAD, then the usual 3 feats for Divine Metamagic: Persistent.
Considering 2 flaws and if the race is human, there's 6 feats left.
What I need now it's someway to do decent damage (else the player gets bored) and to give reasons to the enemies to attack him.
(also can't become large, wouldn't fit in half the places we go)
All wotc books and website are allowed, Dragon Magazine is allowed but requires DM permission, 3rd party licensed splatbooks might be allowed (except Dragonlance setting that IS allowed)

What would you guys do?
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Tr011

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2011, 12:05:27 PM »
and to give reasons to the enemies to attack him.

There's a feat with the only prerequisite that you need Maximize Spell and a mentor to teach you the Feat and this feat auto-maximizes all healing spells you cast. But I don't know where it was, probably a campaign setting. If you can get this you could keep the whole party at high HP so the enemies have to focus you. The only downsides are that you don't deal damage while healing and that you have to be close to your mates without the Reach Spell feat. If BoEF would be allowed you could easily go Metaphysical Spellshaper and go for some nice spontaneous casting with Invisible Spell or something.

Also think about Shield Other to tank some damage even when you don't get focused, it's very useful in my experience. Also increasing size or disguising as a wizard are funny ways to draw aggro, since the hat-and-robe man often gets focused first and large/huge people make visible greater targets than your medium-sized party.

Decent damage can btw be dealt with some metamagic: take Miser With Magic from Kingdoms of Kalamar and spam some nice spells.

X-Codes

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2011, 12:42:55 PM »
What's the makeup of the party?  Do you need ablative defenses or more consistent stuff?

Zoblefu

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2011, 12:44:18 PM »
Think you are referring to "mastery of day and night" from Player's guide to Eberron (p. 125). (For the maximize healing feat)

Our healer uses that :)

Tr011

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2011, 12:54:00 PM »
Think you are referring to "mastery of day and night" from Player's guide to Eberron (p. 125). (For the maximize healing feat)

Our healer uses that :)
Exactly that's what I meant.

Bard

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2011, 01:02:32 PM »
What's the makeup of the party?  Do you need ablative defenses or more consistent stuff?
All is good, consistent ofcourse is better, but I'll take all I can get.

Gnome Illusionist into Shadowcraft Mage with plans of Shadowcrafter 9/Shadow Adept 1
Human Ranger Archer (possibly Scout/Swift Hunter later)
Silverbrow Human Sorcerer into Warmage (Dragonlance Age of Mortals) with plans of incantatrix.
Human Rogue into Invisible Blade with plans of Assassin (good variant from website, can't recall the name)
Silverbrow Human? Bard optimized for Dragonfire Inspiration/Inspire Courage and healing hymn (buffs and heals with some help expected from the cleric if needed) (I'm still deciding the specific of this one with the player, he was our old cleric that got bored of it, it might be of a different race, like a Feytouched with no race levels and Dragontouched feat to get Charm the Arrow feat...)
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2011, 01:08:29 PM »
re healing: Memorize a few close wounds from the spell compendium and persist mass lesser vigor. Then avoid healing by killing opponents first.

build ideas:
Cloistered cleric of Wee Jas 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/whatever rest
Pros: great tanking stances and maneuvers from Crusader, amazing action abuse at RKV 7
Cons: loses caster progression

Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 4/X 1/Dweomerkeeper 10 (take the feat that gives wizard cantrips)
Pros: Incredible magical power.  Can cast in an antimagic field with initiate of mystra. Can cast most sorcerer/wizard spells.
Cons: Slightly lower HP may lend itself more to just ending the encounters with spells even though as a full cleric you CAN tank.

your bone knight idea works too, although it loses as many levels as the RKV build and in my opinion is somewhat less powerful.

Spells to persist:
Mass Lesser Vigor (SpC)
Prayer (ask DM exactly how this will work)
Channeled Divine Shield (PHB2)
Divine Retaliation (PHB2)
Cloud of Knives (PHB2)
Ice Axe or Dark Flame (SpC)

Of course Rod of Extend is helpful. =)
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2011, 01:36:07 PM »
SCM is hybrid blast/control
Swift Hunter is a high damage output archetype
Mailman is mailman
The Invisible Blade is TOTALLY out of place, but probably won't feel it because of...
Dragonfire Inspiration Bard, cranking everyone else up to 11.

I say that if you want to "tank," you'll go a control route, throw Shield Other on squishier targets, and actually only melee as a last resort.  Spells that make enemies flat-footed will help the Rogue more.

Bard

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2011, 03:42:34 PM »
The Invisible Blade is TOTALLY out of place, but probably won't feel it because of...
Dragonfire Inspiration Bard, cranking everyone else up to 11.

As long as I can convince the rogue to dip the right levels, it will be ok... a lvl of barbarian to pounce things and get full attacks more often... free feint of IB + the feat of DotU that makes people flat-footed for the whole round works well to supply the lack of other melee, also the fighter variant from DotU adds dex to damage vs flat-footed, cristals from MIC and Staggering Strike somewhat lessen the issue of critical immune targets, a swordsage dip for Shadow Blade also helps. It really depends if he'll accept to sacrifice levels of assassin for at least 2 of the 3 dips (fighter, barbarian, swordsage)

I say that if you want to "tank," you'll go a control route, throw Shield Other on squishier targets, and actually only melee as a last resort.  Spells that make enemies flat-footed will help the Rogue more.

That's what I suggested, but the player sorta wants to do damage too, so I'm a bit lost since I never did any cleric melee dps build of any sort. Especially one that needs high saves/immunities too.

re healing: Memorize a few close wounds from the spell compendium and persist mass lesser vigor. Then avoid healing by killing opponents first.

build ideas:
Cloistered cleric of Wee Jas 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/whatever rest
Pros: great tanking stances and maneuvers from Crusader, amazing action abuse at RKV 7
Cons: loses caster progression

We're using the OTHER reading for that spell, not the one that totally prevents all the damage dealt in the last attack :P
The RKV build is nice, I'll try to suggest it and see how it goes even if I personally prefer DMM:Persist to RKV 7 to sink turn undead.
The "lose caster progression" is something that I sorta gave up on accepting the second I received the request for the build even if I'd like to avoid losing more than 3 :D
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2011, 04:19:10 PM »
We're using the OTHER reading for that spell, not the one that totally prevents all the damage dealt in the last attack :P

I assumed as much.  It's still often enough of a buffer to keep allies conscious and swinging without using standard actions.  Also, Alter Fortune from PHB2 helps by making opponents re-roll those crits. =)

The RKV build is nice, I'll try to suggest it and see how it goes even if I personally prefer DMM:Persist to RKV 7 to sink turn undead.

You can do persist and still leave a few turn attempts for the ability to go nova is you really need to.

The "lose caster progression" is something that I sorta gave up on accepting the second I received the request for the build even if I'd like to avoid losing more than 3 :D

Fair enough.
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2011, 09:32:32 PM »
Someone else will have to supply the source, but I believe a class called Shiba Protector offers a good one-level dip for Clerics not concerned with losing caster levels.  The Cold domain has a pretty solid collection of spells for what the character should be doing, and arguably gives you another pool of turning.  You can even get a White Dragon minion with that domain's ability if you play your cards right (or similarly powerful beasts under your control).

Shiki

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2011, 09:51:58 PM »
Someone else will have to supply the source, but I believe a class called Shiba Protector offers a good one-level dip for Clerics not concerned with losing caster levels.

It is from Oriental Adventures, on page 222. 1 level dip for +2 Fort, +2 Will, and WIS mod. to hit and damage is plenty good, although feat requirements for entry might make it a bit less appealing (Alertness, Combat Expertise, and Iron Will) unless you have some way to get 'em for "free" (Otyugh Hole (CS) for Iron Will, etc).
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Tr011

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2011, 10:33:25 PM »
WIS mod
While we're on it... check out to get the Shaping Sand (or whatever it is called) for 100 bucks in Sandstorm. It's very very useful to clerics, especially since you need you encumbrance to transport a heavy armor and not utility stuff like a hammer, a climbing set and thieve tools. With a bottle of this sand, you have all of this and much more.

Bard

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2011, 10:41:41 PM »
Would a Crusader/Ur Priest 1/RKV work? (with alternate for both prc and some order of a dead/nonexistend diety, with some look and a well made background the master might just allow it)
I'd need some dip to get a higher Will TS and some class skills to easy the entry in UrPriest tho...
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2011, 07:52:59 PM »
RKV requires turning/rebuking as I recall so you need Ur Priest 2.  However, this combination is VERY powerful.  Even with the lost caster levels, you are casting higher level spells than a cleric at mid levels while being only 1 level behind on crusader because of the way initiator level works.  You get to eat your cake and eat it too!
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

Bard

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Re: Cleric Tank
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2011, 08:05:02 PM »
Unluckily since Crusader has poor Will saves, it needs a dip in some other class to improve them, so you acutually lose 2 initiator levels :\ Even skill requisites are a bit tricky
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]