Author Topic: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...  (Read 11435 times)

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Sinfire Titan

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Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« on: July 27, 2008, 09:26:01 PM »
Quote from: Secrets of Xen'Dirk

Hello Echoing spell, my name is Ultimate Magus/Divine Metamagic. You are about to be broken wide open.

Quote from: Secrets of Sarlona

Not bad! Time Stop for Duskblades!

And how's about a 1-handed Spiked Chain?

Quote

1d6, 1-handed Exotic weapon. And people say the Jovar is broken... Sure it lacks the bonus to trip attempts, but this is still quite the weapon!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 11:36:06 PM by Sinfire Titan »


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SorO_Lost

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Re: A new toy from good old Xen'Dirk
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2008, 09:29:59 PM »
Yet more fun stuff for wizards.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: A new toy from good old Xen'Dirk
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2008, 09:36:04 PM »
Yet more fun stuff for wizards.

Or any prepared caster.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: A new toy from good old Xen'Dirk
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2008, 09:39:54 PM »
I was going to say Tainted Sorcerer... they're perfect for this sort of stuff.

JaronK

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Re: A new toy from good old Xen'Dirk
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2008, 10:29:37 PM »
I was going to say Tainted Sorcerer... they're perfect for this sort of stuff.

JaronK

Until you saw this portion of it, right?

Quote
This feat can be applied only to prepared spells. Spells cast spontaneously cannot benefit from this feat.


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Kuroimaken

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2008, 12:01:55 AM »
Is there a list of spells that don't require CL to be abusable somewhere? Echoing Spell + such a list or Echoing Spell + CL increasing abuse would get very sick, very quickly. How does it work with Consumptive Field?

EDIT:
Quote
Hello Echoing spell, my name is Ultimate Magus/Divine Metamagic. You are about to be broken wide open.

I can see Ultimate Magus, but Divine Metamagic? Echoing Spell doesn't specify that metamagic'ed spells return that way (even if it did, last I checked you couldn't "pre-burn" your Turn attempts to prepare a spell in such a manner... though you COULD burn them to pay for the extra cost, I suppose...)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 12:06:52 AM by Kuroimaken »
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Omen of Peace

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2008, 12:02:12 AM »
I used to think Echoing Spell was great but honestly I always find myself preferring some other metamagic feat.

Time Stop is nice, but as a once-in-a-lifetime ability I would keep second-guessing myself about when to use it. ;)

The Spinning Sword has a 19-20/x2 crit on the Kusari-Gama (DMG). Again, nice but not incredible IMO.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 12:06:19 AM by Omen of Peace »
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2008, 12:06:51 AM »
Is there a list of spells that don't require CL to be abusable somewhere? Echoing Spell + such a list or Echoing Spell + CL increasing abuse would get very sick, very quickly. How does it work with Consumptive Field?

You cast CF once, it goes off as normal. 1 hour later, you get it back with a -4 penalty to CL. If you get a bonus from CF that exceeds the penalties for one of your spells (IE you've got a -4 on Time Stop, and get a +6 from CF) you can cast the spell again, but you don't get to cast it again until you can bypass the second penalty.


Practiced Spellcaster makes this cry...


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2008, 12:07:35 AM »
I used to think Echoing Spell was great but honestly I always find myself preferring some other metamagic feat.

Time Stop is nice, but as a once-in-a-lifetime ability I would keep second-guessing myself about when to use it. ;)

The Spinning Sword has a 19-20/x2 crit on the Kusari-Gama (DMG). Again, nice but not incredible IMO.

KG is light, SS is one-handed. The advantage is Power Attack.


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Omen of Peace

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2008, 12:16:57 AM »
Why not go for a spiked chain if you're going to PA ?
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

AndyJames

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2008, 12:42:40 AM »
SS can be TWF'd. Also, it is a slashing weapon, IIRC. TWF Dervish applies...

Lastly, IIRC, you can trip with it. If so, if you are using it to trip, the -4 to-hit for TWF is not going to hurt as much since the initial to-hit roll is a touch attack, and after you tripped him, the penalty goes away.

A tripping based TWF Dervish using two of these weapons sounds... tasty...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 12:44:55 AM by AndyJames »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2008, 12:45:45 AM »
Why not go for a spiked chain if you're going to PA ?

Oh, I don't know, maybe TWFing Scout/Rangers with PA? Take a look at the benefits of PA. Which seems more painful: +1.5 from Str and damage from PA, or x2 PA with Strength on half and 1/2 of the other? Even the Frenzied Berserker can benefit from TWFing if both weapons he wields can lay the smack down like a Spiked Chain. Doubling the number of attacks you make while still receiving the benefits of PA is what makes this attractive. That, and if you need to you can wield it two-handed anyway. The only advantages the Spiked Chain has over the Spinning Sword are bonuses to trip/disarm and a slightly better damage die (this has a higher Crit range, so it may be worth considerably more).

SS can be TWF'd. Since if you are using it to trip, the -4 to-hit for TWF is not going to hurt as much. Also, it is a slashing weapon, IIRC. TWF Dervish applies...

Yeah it can, you just need Oversized TWFing. Why do people keep forgetting that feat exists? ITs the Spiked Chain that can't be used with TWFing.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2008, 12:52:07 AM »
Is there a list of spells that don't require CL to be abusable somewhere? Echoing Spell + such a list or Echoing Spell + CL increasing abuse would get very sick, very quickly. How does it work with Consumptive Field?

EDIT:
Quote
Hello Echoing spell, my name is Ultimate Magus/Divine Metamagic. You are about to be broken wide open.

I can see Ultimate Magus, but Divine Metamagic? Echoing Spell doesn't specify that metamagic'ed spells return that way (even if it did, last I checked you couldn't "pre-burn" your Turn attempts to prepare a spell in such a manner... though you COULD burn them to pay for the extra cost, I suppose...)

It all depends on how the DM reads DMM. If it actively reduces the cost, then you have to pay every time you cast the spell. If it applies when you prepare it, then it applies constantly. The DMM feat itself does not specify which way you use it, and it could vary depending on the interpretation.

Another possible one is that you never prepare the spell with the feat, instead applying it through DMM when you cast the spell. Echoing Spell's cost is reduced because of DMM, and then when it returns it still has the reduced cost.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

AndyJames

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2008, 12:54:08 AM »
SS can be TWF'd. Since if you are using it to trip, the -4 to-hit for TWF is not going to hurt as much. Also, it is a slashing weapon, IIRC. TWF Dervish applies...

Yeah it can, you just need Oversized TWFing. Why do people keep forgetting that feat exists? ITs the Spiked Chain that can't be used with TWFing.

OK. I am confused about what you are trying to say here, SiFir. If it is a one-handed weapon, then it can be TWF naturally without OTWF, right?

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2008, 12:56:37 AM »
SS can be TWF'd. Since if you are using it to trip, the -4 to-hit for TWF is not going to hurt as much. Also, it is a slashing weapon, IIRC. TWF Dervish applies...

Yeah it can, you just need Oversized TWFing. Why do people keep forgetting that feat exists? ITs the Spiked Chain that can't be used with TWFing.

OK. I am confused about what you are trying to say here, SiFir. If it is a one-handed weapon, then it can be TWF naturally without OTWF, right?

Yes, it can be. OTWF just reduces the penalties to -2/-2 instead of -4/-4.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Omen of Peace

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2008, 12:59:47 AM »
I will readily admit this is far from my area of expertise. I will ask for some proof before I'm convinced though - but you are free to ignore me. ;)

- I'm under the impression that 1 for 1 PA is trash. After all, you definitely lose out on average damage. Can an optimized build afford both TWF and PA optimization ? All the TWF builds I know go looking for extra damage/damage dice while trying to keep a good AB. But again I am probably not aware of many builds.

- "A spinning sword can't be wielded in two hands to apply 1-1/2 times a character's Strength bonus on damage rolls." So no, it's not versatile.

- It says nowhere that it can be used to trip.
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AndyJames

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2008, 01:00:18 AM »
Ah. Yes. That would do it, but I think a Dervish/melle build can wear the -4/-4 with no problems since the initial to-hit roll is a touch attack, and it sort of goes away once the guy is on his rear.

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2008, 01:16:30 AM »
TWF+PA usually won't work.  It requires too much:
5 Feats (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, OTWF, PA) *just* to start your combat style.
Pounce

To make it optimal you need more:
Frenzied Barbarian (2 more feats)
Shock Trooper (2 more feats)
Leap Attack (another feat)

At best we go:
Barb 2/ Ftr 4/ C. Cleric 1/ OC 1/ FB 10/ Ftr +2
6 bonus feats+8 feats as a human should cover all our bases and give improved trip and knock-down to boot.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2008, 01:19:39 AM »
I will readily admit this is far from my area of expertise. I will ask for some proof before I'm convinced though - but you are free to ignore me. ;)

- I'm under the impression that 1 for 1 PA is trash. After all, you definitely lose out on average damage. Can an optimized build afford both TWF and PA optimization ? All the TWF builds I know go looking for extra damage/damage dice while trying to keep a good AB. But again I am probably not aware of many builds.

FB improves PA for even one-handed use. Makes it nicer on you. As for affording TWFing and PA, either use Ranger get get what you need, only take PA and never improve your Str score until you are in FB, or deal with the MAD. I never said it was perfect, but it is an improvement.

Quote
- "A spinning sword can't be wielded in two hands to apply 1-1/2 times a character's Strength bonus on damage rolls." So no, it's not versatile.

Overlooked that part, but it says nothing about getting the PA increases, which is somewhat more important than Strength bonuses unless you are playing something with a Strength of 40 or more.

Quote
- It says nowhere that it can be used to trip.

Point made. Doesn't change the fact that Stand Still can make this weapon very happy. So the KG has it beat for tripping.


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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Ok, now I know why people love Eberron...
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2008, 01:21:26 AM »
TWF+PA usually won't work.  It requires too much:
5 Feats (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, OTWF, PA) *just* to start your combat style.
Pounce

To make it optimal you need more:
Frenzied Barbarian (2 more feats)
Shock Trooper (2 more feats)
Leap Attack (another feat)

At best we go:
Barb 2/ Ftr 4/ C. Cleric 1/ OC 1/ FB 10/ Ftr +2
6 bonus feats+8 feats as a human should cover all our bases and give improved trip and knock-down to boot.

I never said it wasn't expensive. I just said it was possible. But if you crunch the numbers, TWFing may come out ahead.

And there is always Dark Chaos cheese, if we need it.


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