Petitioner --- possibilities

[awaken DM golem]

Here's the basics:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm#petitioners
Some of what is there, is contradictory to the Epic book.
Some of what is in the Epic book, is contradictory to itself.
No surprise.


So far as I know, this has never been looked at.
Lets assume the deity likes you and makes you into a Petitioner.

You'd have to be a class that could travel to the Deities' plane and realms.
You get to keep natural attacks and (ex) , but lose feats and skills, and big HP loss.
You add the Immune to Mind goodie, and a few other things.
Arguably lose all items or most items.


But to keep adventuring you'd have to have a "Not You" that can travel to other planes.
I'm wondering if a useful build is possible?
Maybe limited ToB plus Secret weird caster build.

[Lycanthromancer]

I believe you lose all your class levels. Thus you'd need to be of a caster race capable either casting Astral Projection or calling/summoning/binding nightmares for it (or efreet or some such for Wish).

Or was that only the petitioners in the Manual of the Planes?

[skydragonknight]

Black Ethergaunt?

[zook1shoe]

The petitioner template is the most poorly written template in 3.x

[awaken DM golem]

EPH is not much more detailed than the link above.
Didn't know about Manual of the Planes having perhaps yet another version.
Figures.

It is clear that the HD goes down to 2.
It is clear that the natural and (ex) attacks stick around.

If I invoke the K Polymorph interpretation, the one that keeps the Monster casting,
then a Petitioner "might" keep it's casting. There's no evidence it loses casting.
I'm gonna vote yes. And I'm gonna vote Why Not.
Losing all feats and skills is still a problem.

Black Ethergaunt would keep it's casting, but I'd bet PrCs keep more goodies.


Psi works with Astral Constructs and the Constructor PrC level 5 ability.
Erudite 1 with Planar Vanguard PrC 10 ability should work as a limited Big Guy build,
but a discussion about the Demiplane Psicrystal and the Erudite not leaving the deities' plane,
and then Mindswitch something.

[awaken DM golem]

mmm Kay.

I got a chance to check the MotP version on p. 199-200.
Almost the same, slight differences, CR=1, no treasure/items, keeps (ex).


Sooooo ... the caster ideas are obvious and minimal.
No feats, items, or skills, is a very weird caster; and only high levels.

Front Liner Combat types could be interesting.
CR1 but with lots of (ex) class goodies, might be a tough fight at lower levels.

Interesting.
Not much happening, but interesting.
 

[Nox_Noctis]

Here goes:

I ran into this template about a week ago when trying to find a use for a third-party feat* and then gave up because of the Planar Commitment. This thread, however, got me to rethink some things.

Some dictionary consulting later, I've found a solution. But first, because if I start by saying it everyone will shout, "No, that doesn't work!" here is my reasoning:
Planar Commitment makes it impossible for the creature to "leave" the plane. They "cannot leave." Now, petitioners that can create their own functional duplicates are all well and good, but not every Petitioner has "spells," and not every DM will rule that "spells" is Ex or a "normal" ability. So how do you let the Petitioner go elsewhere without leaving? Well, let's deconstruct "leave." To "leave" a place, one must go out of that place. I don't have an OED subscription anymore, so I'm going off of dictionary.com, but I think we can agree on the reasonable definition #1: "to go out or away from, as a place." Now, to "go" is simply to move or otherwise be transported. Let's look at "out or away from." Well, to be "away from," you must not be in the original place. To be "out" of the original place, you must not be in the original place. A few of you are grinning already. That's because a few of you are thinking with acorns. Enter the Acorn of Far Travel. Give this wonderful acorn to your Petitioner and he'll be good at PLANES-HOPPING. People will look at your petitioner and think it's NOT A PETITIONER. They'll be wrong, and you'll totally PETITION THEIR ASSES. You get the point.

So, yes, I am suggesting that this actually has a purpose. Why are we giving acorns to petitioners? Do we simply want to wreak havoc on the material plane by transporting allegedly CR 1 Hecatoncheires to small towns or, hell, big towns? Maybe, and is that so wrong? I mean, the little fellows come with a maxed-out 16 hit points and the capability to make 100 attacks against big enough targets (sans greatswords, oddly enough). But some of us have other dreams. Some of us have DMs who like a challenge, or like excuses for cruel and psychologically unstable retribution, or just plain don't know what's happening because we roofied their soda for him giving me the Girdle of Delicacy (+5 Dex, makes you female) in our loot session after I saved the party's collective asses from three red dragons. And for those of us, we can turn to the 3rd-party Netbook of Feats, which has a feat that is problematic enough on its own and even better now that we've created CR 1 godlings. Ladies and gentlemen, the Enchanted Familiar. The Enchanted Familiar is any creature of Diminutive, Tiny, or Small size whose CR is 1/3 or less of your level. Now, yes, I may have led you on with Hecatoncheires. He's far too big (that's what she said). But what about a Will-O-Wisp for starters? Demilich is awful because it lacks any meaningful abilities to retain, but think of the possibilities. Moreover, if your DM is being lenient, is it too late to mention that while we took pictures of him passed out with penises drawn on him that we realized we could add templates to the creature before it becomes a Petitioner and handwave it all in our backstory? Oh man is Derek in for one hell of a surprise.

[skydragonknight]

12 headed hydra and similar petitioners make great undead, if you can reliably counteract opposed turn undead attempts. Becoming mindless undead should remove the commitment. They're 2 HD each, regardless of original hit dice. A bit sucky on the BAB but 72 heads for the price of 12 means something will hit!

[awaken DM golem]

Sweeeet.

by-the-way Nox , I lost my ability to read minds at a distance , and as premonitions , a long time ago 

Of course this exercise is a blatant subversion of R.A.I.
It is most probably the case r.a.i., that a monster loses blah blah blah.
But it isn't absolutely the case. And certainly not r.a.w.

It is also not absolutely the case, that a Petitioner has no gear or treasure.
" ... is that so wrong ... "
Figuring a way to do a CR 1 Epic Monster, is off into T.O. land. I like.


I think the caster ideas are kinda weak ... except it's CR 1 (or 2).
Fancy Monster + weird other templates + very unusual Classes = mega monster , especially for the CR.


**


Undead into Petitioner is OK.
No idea about Mindless vs. Planar Commitment.

" ... A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. ... "
It is possible to have "programmed instructions" that make you leave the plane.
Which rule takes priority?

[skydragonknight]

Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. A skeleton gains the following special qualities.

I'm assuming Planar Commitment is a Special Quality which doesn't improve it's attacks.

[Nox_Noctis]

Correct.

The mindlessness would have nothing to do with Planar Commitment since it's a supernatural commitment and any attempt to leave instead results in a random teleport. But losing the Planar Commitment is one option. Unfortunately, going with a Skeleton or Zombie means it loses pretty much all its abilities anyway, except for the ones you've bolded. So, for instance, you could have a Petitioner Tarrasque Skeleton, but it would retain no SAs or SQs, and otherwise it would be a 2d12 undead that presents plenty of surface area to attack.

Rebuking undead, however, lets you play with lots of undead templates that don't ruin the creature's SAs and SQs.

[skydragonknight]

Yeah. Skeleton was just a quick example. I said mindless because I knew all of those lose (Su) abilities. I'm not an expert on undead templates so I don't know which ones would lose Planar Commitment but keep the most stuff...

[Maat_Mons]

Planar commitment only affects your ability to leave.  If you can suppress the ability long enough the get off the plane, you won't be shifted back to the plane when the quality kicks in again.  Winged watcher (Complete Scoundrel), or any other new polymorph subschool spell, suppresses all your special abilities temporarily.  

[Nox_Noctis]

Yeah, Polymorph would let you bypass the need for Acorn of Far Travel as a one-time expenditure. You'd have to pay attention, if you're not using the Enchanted Familiar version (say you want something of Fine or Medium-Colossal size or your DM doesn't like third-party), however, to which spells are Personal though (the low-level CS ones are all Personal only).

If your DM is okay with mutable flavor, here's another route for making one your pet (note: I'm only highlighting easy-access, low-level routes):
Start with a Petitioner.
That Petitioner has been Corrupted by the Abyss.
It has also become a ---- Element Creature.
You have the ---- domain.
Rebuke/Command it.
Give it an acorn of far travel.
You have now caught your very first Pokemon Petitioner.

The great thing is that Element Creatures retain all SAs and SQs (as do creatures Corrupted by the Abyss), and you gain some other benefits, and it can be any creature you want as a base.

Now, NOTE: The flavor mutability is important because the MotP describes the ---- Element Creatures as being from the inner planes. Petitioners are from the outer planes (and bound to them). Additionally, there is some vagueness about whether or not ---- Element Creature can be acquired. It doesn't say either way if it's Acquired or Inherited.


EDIT: So, I heard this wasn't exactly Fire Emblem? Turns out that not only is there an Easy Mode, there's a Super Easy Mode (and there is no hard mode, this isn't Nintendo).
Make up your own flavor for this, but here's how it works through my simple flavoring:
A creature dies. Its soul is chosen. A deity raises it, and it becomes a Petitioner. Awakened to a new life, it humbly serves. But the dark god Imix takes an interest in the affairs of the planes and moves to subtly overcome his enemies. As what is almost certainly part of a larger effort, he perverts this creature, and it becomes Corrupted (by the Abyss; author's note: this template appeared elsewhere as just Corrupted, and is specifically noted in EDP as being altered to be flavored for the Abyss in that book). But his plans are far from over, and to turn the planar tides, Imix chooses this creature, which is now an agent of his dark schemes, turning it into his champion, and infuses it with his powers, making it Imix-Blooded. But there are other forces at work in the multiverse, and the heroes arrive, valiant protagonists who possess the powers of the Fire Domain, who promptly commit blatant acts of theft and make off with their very own Charizard. As they give it a special Acorn to hold, Imix watches, his fiery wrath melting the world around him, and the heroes, knowing he is watching, whisper, "Lol, u mad?"

EDIT 2: So perhaps you're thinking, "Wow, that sounds great, but I'm too lazy to look up more than two templates." And why should you? The designers certainly sympathize (and the expert game balance shows). That's why they've provided ... the Mineral Warrior! Turn your Petitioner into a Mineral Warrior, and say goodbye to needing any more templates. Command that Earth creature and piss on game balance the easy way.

[Amechra]

There are a pair of monsters that explicitly have the ability to cast spells as a cleric or wizard as Ex abilities...

CR 1 with 7th level Wizard casting? U mad?

[zook1shoe]

The main thing that makes this template so powerful, is the HD reduction

[Nox_Noctis]

The main thing that makes this template so powerful, is the HD reduction

Seriously. So easy to control something with 2 or 4HD.

Though it poses problems for the Acorn of Far Travel (or even Polymorph), a Colossus has an (Ex) 100' Anti-magic Field. That's just cool.

It should be noted that, barring some spell effect or feat or item that modifies this, you must be level 4 or 8 (2 or 4 HD respectively) to command such a creature due to the base rules of Turn/Destroy/Command.

[zook1shoe]

It's not just that, it can allow uber builds with only ~2 HD

[awaken DM golem]

The Alter Self + Polymorph monster lists are all ok.
Almost all of the Shapechange list is ok, except the no (su) part.


Isn't most of Tome Of Battle in the (ex) category ?!