Author Topic: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?  (Read 11108 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bard

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« on: July 12, 2011, 08:34:46 PM »
As title says, I was helping build a couple of characters for some friends, and one of them is a Shadowcraft Mage (the other a Shifter Druid/Moonspeaker) for a high-op campaign.
The SCM seemed to be a good choice since there's so much hype for it around and it grants a lot of versatility that can be helpful since the campaign is still 60% roleplaying and combat is often sudden with no time to "change spells to more fitting on", so a Spontaneous Divinator Shadowcraft Mage with Signature spell seemed to be ideal.
Fact is... the more I try to build one and read about it, the more it looks like a really more versatile and really less powerful wizard. Achieving full reality on lowish-level spells (3+) requires more or less all levels and most feats, it starts working really late (11+) and there's not much left for sheaningans to increase anything else. Without it everything is at risk of failing or does less damage, even when you manage to get >100% reality the bonus pales in confront to what a Incantarix or a Red Wizard can provide. Also summons afaik in any case have 1/5th HP... Fitting Archmage is impossible (Mastery of Shape is priceless when you end up fighting often in really cramped spaces where the monsters are all mixed up with players)

Residual Magic is more or less the only useful thing I managed to pull out of the hat really.

Am I "playing" it wrong? Am I missing something?  :banghead :banghead

[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 08:43:55 PM »
Yes.

What level are you?

Anyway the keys are:
Heighten spell + Practical Metamagic + metamagic school + Arcane Thesis (Silent Image) + earth Spell That's 4 levels right there for free, then take that Dragon Feat that gives you +20% to your shadows. Your 6th level slots are now casting 120% real miracles or gates. Not good enough for you? How about your fourth level slots casting 100% real. 7th Level spells? Like Summon Monster 7 On a fourth level slot.

Oh and why aren't you going Focused Specialist Illusionist? It's not like you'll ever need to cast anything but a few transmutation spells and Silent Image.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 08:54:43 PM »
Remember that Earth Spell + Arcane Thesis should be sending your caster level into the stratosphere, in addition to boosting the level of the spell.  Use spells where that fact is very beneficial.  Also, remember that the casting time and component costs will always be that of Silent Image.  That really helps for spells like Major Creation and Genesis and Contingency.  

Don't forget the Gnome Illusionist substitution levels if you're going out of Wizard (Beguiler is another option).  They lower the level of Silent Image... which means more benefits from Earth Spell.  Also remember that Earth Spell with Easy Metamagic/Practical Metamagic should allow for easy early qualification.

JaronK

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 08:59:22 PM »
Changeling double-focused specialist (combining the changeling double specialist ACF with the focused specialist ACF) is also amazing. Double-specialize in both transmutation AND illusion, and getting twice the benefits of focused specialist, is good stuff when all you really need is transmutation and illusion anyway.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Aharon

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 224
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 09:07:24 PM »
@Mixster
The use of Heighten Spell in conjunction with Practical Metamagic isn't as clear cut as one would wish it to be. I think NineInchNall even pointed that out in his original handbook. SCM is powerful without that, though.

@Bard
I agree that Red Wizard with Circle Magic abuse and Incantatrix are more powerful. The versatility of the SCM is pretty wide-ranging, though. And your Shadow Illusion Summons have the same quasi-reality as your other spells, so they usually get more than 1/5 of the HP.
Plus, if your save DCs are high enough, the quasi-reality doesn't matter, since your opponents believe your spells to be real anyway...
By clicking this link, you open a pop-up, but I get a eurocent for my current wish, the 5th book of the Wheel of Time series. Please note that this only works if you leave the pop-up opened till it has finished loading. Thank you!

fallen-angle

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 51
    • Email
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2011, 09:14:02 PM »
Plus, if your save DCs are high enough, the quasi-reality doesn't matter, since your opponents believe your spells to be real anyway...

This can be a disadvantage, for reality 110%+ illusions you WANT the opponent to succeed. Only then do they suffer the bonus damage.
Master Transmographist Guide (In Progress): http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9277.20

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2011, 10:11:31 PM »
... How are you guys using Arcane Thesis? The feat states outright that it can't be used with Heighten.


Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2011, 11:06:24 PM »
What other metamagic feats? None of the reducers are metamagic feats.  ???

Are they implied metamagic feats?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 11:08:08 PM by Kajhera »

Bard

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 11:11:27 PM »
Ok, so...
Easy Metamagic is ok, I put it into the build, as well as Earth Spell.
Practical Metamagic requires me to get dragonblood, but atm I'm a whisper gnome, what to do? the stony gnome from Dragon Magic?
Arcane Thesis doesn't work with Heighten (but I guess it's there for some other metamagic feat)

Changelings don't qualify for shadowcraft mages or am I missing something? (says you must be a gnome)

Basically the advantage is casting spells earlier (if the DM allows it)? And an increase of caster level of 4/10ish I guess.
The advice I should give to the guy that will actually play it should be along the line of use lower level slots to cast heightened spells and abuse of Residual Magic to cast them again with even lower slots?

At this point going shadowcrafter/shadow adept is worth it or should he just go red wizard or something to boost even more the caster level? (no incantatrix since we don't want "doubles" in team and the sorcerer got it)
Or should I get them and (or at least the shadow adept first level) and then Chaos Shuffle away the feats when the quasi-reality is over 100%?

@Ahron: the description of shadow conjuration tho says that the summoned creatures have 1/5th hp, it doesn't mention quasi-reality like it does for attack/armor/etc, is there some rule I'm missing that overrides that for higher % of quasi-reality?
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2011, 11:17:25 PM »
There's a recommended non-racial variant in the class itself, and the feat Racial Emulation in RoE allows changelings to count as other races for all purposes if your DM won't have any of that.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1585
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2011, 12:14:00 AM »
The only weakness a wizard has is the fact that it needs some foresight to prepare the right spells. SCM partially takes that weakness away.

Now yes, SCM IS very feat intensive and lacks the pure power of Incantatrix, however, note that it's only 5 levels long (and only 3 of them required).  Nothing is stopping you from being Wizard 5/Incantatrix 2/SCM 3/Incantrix 8/SCM 2.

As for the power of shadow illusions.  In addition to insane flexibility:
a) your caster level with earth spell is incredible.
b) standard action casting time for all covered spells (Genesis is the most amusing example here, but plenty of other spells have long casting times)
c) Ignore all material components and focuses
d) Even with moderate optimization, you can be casting a Miracle out of a level 8 slot followed by a quickened Miracle from a level 0 slot... with no costs....

Also note that you have built-in miss chance to increase survivability.

There are SOME drawbacks of course.
1. Mandatory spell resistance.  Note that bypassing SR is a caster level check.  You have +5 to +12 to your caster level without much shenanigans... generally irrelevant.
2. No consistent rulings on what counts as interact for save vs. disbelief. 
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

Aharon

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 224
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2011, 12:33:44 AM »
@Bard
Huh, you're right, just with reference to core, it seems that way. Never noticed that  :o

However, wether it's that way in core or not doesn't matter, because the actual ability of the SCM overrides it pretty clearly:
Quote from: Example from Races of Stone
If she used programmed image to mimic summon monster V, the
creature would have 60% of the hit points of a normal creature
of its kind,...

As JaronK pointed out, you can use Easy Metamagic (from Dragon #325) if you have problems fitting practical metamagic into your build.

Unless you use one of the racial adaptation thingies, the character can't go into Red Mage because it has human as a prereq. I personally like shadowcrafter, because I prefer the high saves route, but YMMV.

If chaos-shuffling is allowed in your campaign, why do you worry about being feat-starved? You can shuffle the familiar-granted alertness...
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 12:40:19 AM by Aharon »
By clicking this link, you open a pop-up, but I get a eurocent for my current wish, the 5th book of the Wheel of Time series. Please note that this only works if you leave the pop-up opened till it has finished loading. Thank you!

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2011, 12:38:40 AM »
I'd say its power depends a LOT on the DM's willingness to go along with you and your levels/available books.

1. The more metamagic reducers are allowed for Heighten, the better the SCM is. If Easy/Practical Heighten are allowed by the DM, the build shoots up in power.

2. If you're playing at level 12+, then SCM is a lot more effective than 1-20, since as you noted the reality % on level 1-6 spells won't be very good until lategame.

3. Versatility is only as good as your imagination and book count. If you only have core and races of stone, SCM isn't particularly good - but if you can dumpster-dive for any evocation or conj: summoning/creation spell ever, it is much stronger. Sort of like a druid.

4. Finally, there's no consensus on what 110% reality constitutes. A DM is perfectly justified in ruling that a 110% real fireball does 10d6 just like a 100% real one. So depending on DM, there's no real benefit past 100% reality, except that the more you add on, the closer you get to the 100% mark with lower level spells.

With that said, the flavor is awesome, and its only 5 levels, enough to fit in incantatrix, recaster, red wizard, shadowcaster, master specialist, or whatever else you want to be incredibly powerful.

Phoenix00

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2011, 12:54:02 AM »
If you are doing low levels of play, a cloistered cleric shadowcraft mage is where it is at.  Take a domain that gives you silent image and take the varient of phb2 that trades spontaneous domains spells for spontaneous cures/inflicts.  Combine with DMM heighten.

Throw up a strong summon followed via a resillent sphere for defense and have your summon go to town.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2011, 01:50:18 AM »
Practical Metamagic requires me to get dragonblood, but atm I'm a whisper gnome, what to do? the stony gnome from Dragon Magic?
Arcane Thesis doesn't work with Heighten (but I guess it's there for some other metamagic feat)
Don't be a whisper gnome! They lose the +1 to Illusion DCs! Forest gnome (MM1/SRD) is better for a SCM. For dragonblood, I'm sure there's a template you could add... Draconic is +1 LA. If buyoff is in effect, that is a great one.

The only weakness a wizard has is the fact that it needs some foresight to prepare the right spells. SCM partially takes that weakness away.
This pretty much sums it up right here. There are other ways to get quasi-spontaneous casting with a wizard (Uncanny Forethought is one), but SCM is a pretty decent one. It can also be entered by non-wizards, for which I think it is a very good option.

As far as the double-saves thing, when I played a cl. cleric/scm, I tried to mostly use utility spells that would affect my team mates (we could voluntarily fail the save(s)), or things that normally didn't allow a save (summoned monsters and other conjuration effects).
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Phoenix00

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2011, 02:07:58 AM »
More on the Cleric/Shadowcraft Mage here (a wonderful build by PhaedrusXY)
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=346.msg8912#msg8912

Note that he also links to small variants of the build that he has also played.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2011, 02:50:23 AM »
I remember there being something that offered an absurd bonus to Will: Disbelief saving throw DCs, although maybe I was simply mis-reading the Chains of Disbelief ability out of UA.  In any case, Silent Image is a Will Disbelief, and abilities that boost the save on that side also boost the save of the emulated spell (subject to wording, but AFAIK they're written like Master Specialist's ability).

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2011, 03:01:32 AM »
If you want Easy Metamagic and Practical Metamagic, consider being a Dragonborn Whispergnome.  Loss of the bonus to illusions and hiding hurts, but +4 Con -2 Dex -2 Cha is a great stat set and you get to be dragon-y enough.

JaronK

Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
Re: Is the Shadowcraft Mage really that powerful?
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2011, 03:18:17 AM »
Can one of you all please post a sample build(s) with feats and all?  As well as suggestions for Magic Items to buy?

Thanks,
Bill