Author Topic: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3  (Read 12783 times)

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Shinzen

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2011, 09:24:34 PM »
I've yet to see a magic item besides "Antimagic Field: Continuous Use" that protects you from a determined caster who is trying his damndest to kill you and is sufficiently optimized.

A determined caster who is sufficiently optimized will point and laugh at you having cut your own balls off with the antimagic field and then destroy you with a fusillade of instantaneous conjuration orbs, or just throw millions of pounds of rock at you with Shrink Item and -- oops -- they expand to full size again at the edge of that field.

Hence the Mailman part at the end. He's an optimized blaster (I know, I cringed too) who cares nothing for your antimagic.

A Jade Phoenix Mage gish would laugh at you too, as he breaks your Antimagic Field by flexing his triceps.

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weenog

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2011, 09:48:34 PM »
But you don't even need to be a focused blaster to do that, is the thing.  Some of the metamagic and other tricks that make annihilating folks with negative levels (or at least debuffing them fast and hard) work can apply to that one orb spell you know just in case, and you don't have to be killing people ever to see reason to know and prepare Telekinesis and Shrink Item.
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veekie

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2011, 02:50:29 AM »
veekie, this gets better and better.
What range do you mean by low levels? And what point would be the start for higher levels?
Low levels being levels 1-6, possibly 1-8. While most of the tricks come online by 6th, not all casters can afford the slots or items for them until 8th
High levels being the teen levels, as the more muscular divinations, teleportation and multitools like polymorph really hit their full bloom.

Quote
And how would you factor in the role of magic items?
Say, a fighter at level 13 has no way to get teleport from his class - but can get the ability 3/day with boots he can afford since he has more permanent class abilities (higher hp, higher BAB) than a wizard (who gets hp-boosting items and devotes some spells to attacking ability to make up for that). What do you think?
Hm. Possibly we can leave it out - but I found that rather cheap magic items either
a) emulate quite a lot of the spells of spellcasters and
b) protect from quite a lot of the spells of spellcasters.
Also, some items just work with a certain class ability - maybe their use may be included?
Low, this is part of the metric.
The following are what counts:
-Permanent class abilities, like Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater/Superior Resistance/Mage Armor. These can save you a whole quarter of your wealth, across the whole party no less. More optionally, Anticipate Teleportation, the Hearts of Air/Earth/Water/Fire provide cheap day-long effects.
--Due to spell completion items and item crafting, casters also enjoy cheaper items for the same effect, with wands being significantly more cost effective than potions. Classes with good charisma and Use Magic Device can emulate this, but casters come with it for free and can craft to further reduce the costs.
--Due to role, melee classes, including magic based melee classes like the duskblade and warblade, require a higher investment. The most expensive standard magic item type is a weapon. Therefore any class that requires a melee weapon is already at a sizable disadvantage to begin with. Caster classes with 1/2 BAB do not care because they weren't going to use that BAB to begin with. Classes with low health endeavor not to get hit like everyone else, because the dice difference between d4 and d10 is only 3 hp per level, which falls within random variance of full attack damage. Being full attacked by say...a dragon would have about equal chance to oneshot an unprepared caster or unoptimized meleer.
--Bonus prioritization.
---Caster: Casting stat bonus > Misc AC boosters > Con bonus > Save bonus(classes with Greater/Superior Resistance ignore this) Armor(classes with Magic Vestment/Greater Mage Armor ignore this), Metamagic rods(varies by build) > Misc scrolls
---Melee: Weapon > Str bonus > Con bonus > Dex bonus > Armor > Save bonus > Misc AC boosters > Potions/Activated items. This gets worse for someone with the misfortune to need a weapon bonus on a natural weapon, the most expensive item costs even more.God help the fool with TWF.

Thus, a T3 melee class would need access to something to relieve the load on wealth. Maybe he has alternate defenses that cover for a clubbed save(Warblade), maybe he comes with a fully enchanted weapon(Psychic Warrior), maybe he has magical full plate armor he can summon(Binder), but item dependency is a fact of life for all non-casters. Playing the equipment game with a caster is a lost cause unless you're an Artificer or something.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 02:55:12 AM by veekie »
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Sir Giacomo

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2011, 04:28:17 PM »
Hm. Thanks, Veekie, will think on that. Will not be able to post before the weekend (although I'll risk a look at the adept vs monk thread...oh no...30 pages...urrrgh...)  :)

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2011, 05:15:36 AM »
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 05:38:13 AM by Jackinthegreen »

weenog

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2011, 05:28:00 AM »
Classes with equal footing have "different but equal" abilities.

You just made me think of two drinking fountains, one for fighters and one for everyone else.
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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2011, 05:32:35 AM »
Classes with equal footing have "different but equal" abilities.

You just made me think of two drinking fountains, one for fighters and one for everyone else.

Fighters?  I'm more inclined to say Commoners in this context.  "You serfs get the warm funny-tasting water! We higher folk get the cool, refreshing water."

And then of course a peasant chimes in with "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

veekie

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2011, 05:53:41 AM »
Well, I've seen varying  ways of doing it.

In Exalted(which, mind you, is not famed for game balance, but you can extract some concepts from it), every PC is magical. You either had Enlightened Essence and can apply magical energy to what you do, or you don't and you're a Mortal.
Most of this energy doesn't get used in spellcasting, it's spent to directly augment your capabilities. So for Melee you get extra attacks, extreme accuracy, impossible parries and general attack/defense buffs or special effects. For Craft it lets you work with no tools, at incredible speeds, deconstruct things and to create things that shouldn't be possible. For Athletics you get the speed and strength suite. For Resistance you get endurance, damage reduction, invulnerability and physical immunities. The list goes on. The same energy feeds spells and magical equipment(which hog your energy to continue working). Its clearly split between the haves and have-nots. If you're a PC, you have magic, even if its the subtle kind that simply cranks your existing capabilities to 11.

In Dresden Files RPG, you have spells come out of mental fatigue, but at the same time work under the same rules as everything else. The sole difference to non-combat magic and using the right skill is that you need more prep for the magic, but can get bigger numbers with the right prep. Combat magic is literally just another weapon, mechanically, you can get massive damage, but if you miss(which uses the same rules as weapons attacks) you just wasted some mental fatigue. Intense spellcasting gets the mage tired FAST.

Well, you get the idea. To get casters in the same boat as everyone else, they'd need the same depth of resources.
A D&D caster has:
Time - What can you do with your actions in and out of combat, out of combat spells and skills go here
Health
Casting Resource
Wealth

A D&D Fighter/Monk/whatever has:
Time - What can you do with your actions in and out of combat, feats and other permanent abilities go here
Health
Wealth

Except health is puny compared to monster output, even for dedicated tanks, and spells are more potent than wealth(since everything worth buying is derived from spells to start with).
Thats just looking at it in a crude way. Unless you can make Wealth > the caster's Wealth + Spells, or using permanent abilities to make your non-caster Time = the casters Time + Spells, its inherently flawed.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 05:55:18 AM by veekie »
The mind transcends the body.
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
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weenog

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2011, 05:55:47 AM »
Classes with equal footing have "different but equal" abilities.

You just made me think of two drinking fountains, one for fighters and one for everyone else.

Fighters?  I'm more inclined to say Commoners in this context.  "You serfs get the warm funny-tasting water! We higher folk get the cool, refreshing water."

And then of course a peasant chimes in with "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

Commoners at least get Spot and Listen so they can notice the enemies coming, and then zerg rush them with cows via Handle Animal.  Fighters just have to hope a member of a real class points out the ambush before they walk into it and get torn to pieces, now seeing the violence inherent in the system.
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Jackinthegreen

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2011, 06:08:27 AM »
Classes with equal footing have "different but equal" abilities.

You just made me think of two drinking fountains, one for fighters and one for everyone else.

Fighters?  I'm more inclined to say Commoners in this context.  "You serfs get the warm funny-tasting water! We higher folk get the cool, refreshing water."

And then of course a peasant chimes in with "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

Commoners at least get Spot and Listen so they can notice the enemies coming, and then zerg rush them with cows via Handle Animal.  Fighters just have to hope a member of a real class points out the ambush before they walk into it and get torn to pieces, now seeing the violence inherent in the system.
Can't argue with that.  It's really a failure of the system that a combat-oriented class doesn't get the main perception-based skills.  Kinda hard to hit the enemy if you don't know where it is!

JaronK

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2011, 04:13:05 PM »
Yeah, and the fact that Fighters don't get Knowledge (History), which is knowledge of warfare and martial tactics (see Heroes of Battle) is pathetic.  They also are one of two classes that don't get Profession (Siege Engineer).  A Fighter who's supposed to be a veteran of many wars still can't even identify a single enemy's strengths or weaknesses, and that's just stupid.

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Jackinthegreen

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2011, 07:02:02 PM »
Excellent point there.  History of course works, as does Martial Lore from CW.  A proper Fighter without those really does fail.  Pathfinder's Fighter adds in Dungeoneering and Engineering, but not History/ML.

I'd probably put different tiers of skills within the class, since a level 1 Fighter is a recruit, but as one goes up in level they obviously become a veteran.  Even though ranks improve with level, a recruit won't typically be trained in those skills while a veteran has had plenty of training from experience.

One way to add more power at later levels could be to add extra skills later on in the class.  At certain levels a character could add certain skills to his class.  The class could also grant double skill points for that level, representing the character becoming more skilled overall.  This would add some incentive for a character to stay in a particular class for a while.  The capstone might be a triple or even quadruple dose of skill points.

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2011, 07:15:39 PM »
Really, there should've been a mechanic somewhere along the way for any character to know things about opponents in battle based on that character's BAB. It works just like the Knowledge skills, except the character can choose to use his BAB+Int on the check for a slightly lowered DC (say, the required Knowledge check -5 or something, to account for lower ranks).

A character with Knowledge skills can use those skills or his BAB roll, whichever he prefers. That way nobody has to burn skill points just for what they should be able to do anyway.
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Jackinthegreen

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2011, 07:26:47 PM »
Something else that I guess better qualifies a character for T3 is exponential growth instead of linear progression.  Fighters are barely above "linear progression" due to feats getting stronger as he levels.

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2011, 07:37:06 PM »
Something else that I guess better qualifies a character for T3 is exponential growth instead of linear progression.  Fighters are barely above "linear progression" due to feats getting stronger as he levels.
Problem is, only Power Attack and a scant few others actually scale decently.

Everything else is something you can have by level 6, and getting 6th level effects at level 20 is crap.
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Jackinthegreen

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2011, 09:35:44 PM »
Something else that I guess better qualifies a character for T3 is exponential growth instead of linear progression.  Fighters are barely above "linear progression" due to feats getting stronger as he levels.
Problem is, only Power Attack and a scant few others actually scale decently.

Everything else is something you can have by level 6, and getting 6th level effects at level 20 is crap.
I was thinking about the Weapon Focus and Weapon specialization lines, but the feats themselves don't really scale.  They just happen to have a fighter level prerequisite, among other things.  Still, Weapon Supremacy does have some nice benefits, even if the prereqs to get into it are practically obscene.

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2011, 11:19:31 PM »
Something else that I guess better qualifies a character for T3 is exponential growth instead of linear progression.  Fighters are barely above "linear progression" due to feats getting stronger as he levels.
Problem is, only Power Attack and a scant few others actually scale decently.

Everything else is something you can have by level 6, and getting 6th level effects at level 20 is crap.
I was thinking about the Weapon Focus and Weapon specialization lines, but the feats themselves don't really scale.  They just happen to have a fighter level prerequisite, among other things.  Still, Weapon Supremacy does have some nice benefits, even if the prereqs to get into it are practically obscene.
The vast majority of feats suck, and are almost never level-appropriate beyond level 6 or so. You have to stack feats like there's no tomorrow to get anything worthwhile out of them, which pushes you into a one-trick-pony niche that you can't escape from without falling farther and farther behind.

Bleh.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2011, 12:59:20 AM »
Something else that I guess better qualifies a character for T3 is exponential growth instead of linear progression.  Fighters are barely above "linear progression" due to feats getting stronger as he levels.
Problem is, only Power Attack and a scant few others actually scale decently.

Everything else is something you can have by level 6, and getting 6th level effects at level 20 is crap.
I was thinking about the Weapon Focus and Weapon specialization lines, but the feats themselves don't really scale.  They just happen to have a fighter level prerequisite, among other things.  Still, Weapon Supremacy does have some nice benefits, even if the prereqs to get into it are practically obscene.
The vast majority of feats suck, and are almost never level-appropriate beyond level 6 or so. You have to stack feats like there's no tomorrow to get anything worthwhile out of them, which pushes you into a one-trick-pony niche that you can't escape from without falling farther and farther behind.

Bleh.

The chief exception to this is, of course, Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu, which remains equally effective well into epic levels.
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JaronK

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2011, 03:26:03 AM »
Don't forget Skill Focus: Craft Basketweaving!

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veekie

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Re: In search for criteria for melee classes to be considered Tier 3
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2011, 07:01:13 AM »
Well more to the point, most melee higher level feats have massive prereqs in terms of other feats, so when you finish a feat chain you're mostly back down to the root feats.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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