Author Topic: Help choosing class and then optimising...  (Read 2725 times)

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The Sach

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Help choosing class and then optimising...
« on: July 10, 2011, 12:30:39 AM »
Hi there...

I'm writing for a bit of assistance in my decision making.

I'm going to be joining a game with 4 new players. They have already rolled their characters (I assisted the DM due to my experience).

The DM is allowing me some reasonable slack, minus campaign specific material. We have dice generated abilities, but I haven't rolled them up yet.

The party consists of the following:

A halfling druid (high dex and wis), a human sorcerer (average stats, spell focus Enchantment & Illusion), an elf ninja (high dex and wis, point blank shot, wanting to focus on shuriken), and an elf bard (High strength and charisma, multi-tasking to do a bit of everything)

The DM has urged me that I not interfere with their characters, so please don't tell me suggestions with how to fix them up. This topic is all about my character.

Now, they are lacking a 'tank' role, and some decent healing/spellcasting (as their spell choices will most likely be very average or lackluster for a while)

So... My mind went straight to Cleric, it's tier 1, and I can build it for melee. Now I have a few options:

Dip crusader and go for Ruby Knight Vindicator...

or Choose my domains, grab an outsider race (probably neraphim) and a domain for polymorph, and exploit polymorph.

EDIT: I just had a thought to maybe build a summoner, and then just summon BSFs for the party... better option?

Which of these 3 options do you think would allow me to fill the melee role, as well as try and support the others for when they don't have any options?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 12:41:55 AM by The Sach »

The Sach

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2011, 12:33:19 AM »
And I just realised I posted this in handbooks, and not in the general min/max forum.

My apologies.

Could this be moved please?

EDIT: Thank you for the move, and apologies once more for the mistake.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 10:35:36 PM by The Sach »

The Sach

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2011, 10:59:52 PM »
No suggestions... ok...

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2011, 11:13:23 PM »
No suggestions... ok...
I post regularly on here, and this is the first time I've seen this thread. So I'd guess no one has replied because they didn't see it.

A melee cleric certainly sounds like what your group could use. I wouldn't worry too much about optimizing, as it sounds like they're fairly inexperienced. Maybe just go cleric/church inquisitor, and take some fairly generic feats like power attack, etc. Avoid things that might too overpowered like Divine Metamagic, unless you use them as group buffs exclusively (Mass Lesser Vigor to give everyone fast healing, etc). In fact, you might go with a mix of generic melee feats, and some feats to let you buff/heal more effectively. That's not really very optimized, but it will let you help them out discreetly. Maybe go Radiant Servant, even.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Aharon

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2011, 11:16:23 PM »
Do you really want/need to be Tier 1? The party is all over the place (Druid Tier 1, Sorcerer Tier 2, Bard Tier 3, Ninja Tier 4). As you are competent, you will overshadow them with a Tier 1 class.

Allowed Sourcebooks?

What level do you start at?

My actual advice would be just crusader, from the three choices you present I would pick cleric/crusader/RKV. Reason:
a) build can use more spell slots on buffs than the summoning focused character can, so you can help out the rest of your group
b) the polymorph-oriented approach reeks of cheddar and doesn't sound like the thing you want to do in a game with new players.
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Tr011

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2011, 11:17:02 PM »
The party does not really sound optimized...
So if you wanna make a BSF and the party already has divine+arcane casters, why don't you just try something funny as a BSF? (depending on what you like to play, f.e. Psychic Warriors with Levitation and Roof-Jumper may be funny)

I don't see why a cleric is needed (druid and bard and sorcerer should be enough for most casting). But it's obviously fitting as a powerful BSF:

/edit: you could keep helping out the weaker guys, too, i.e. getting the ninja to attack flat-fooded opponents (grease is classic)

kharmakazy

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2011, 12:07:14 AM »
I would just go warblade or crusader and encourage the party to buy healing belts.

weenog

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 12:15:03 AM »
If your bard is trying to do everything rather than focus on one or two things, and your ninja wants to screw around with shuriken with their low base damage, and your group needs a big stupid fighter, why not make a crusader with a bard dip and use song of the white raven and dragonfire inspiration?  You'll be pretty tough, won't be stepping on the straight bard's toes but might give him some ideas if he wants to focus later (and if he's boosting strength he probably intends to melee occasionally and could use the help), the ninja should love you, and I expect the druid will appreciate it when wild shaped into something with claws and fangs and so forth.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 12:17:04 AM by weenog »
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 12:27:22 AM »
I think a bardsader will likely step on the bard's toes... :P

You might check out this thread, as it sounds somewhat similar to your situation.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2011, 12:32:08 AM »
Why would a bardsader step on the toes of a bard that wants to be the do-everything guy rather than the just make everyone hit like a truck guy?
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
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amazingtrapsmith

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2011, 12:34:52 AM »
Why would a bardsader step on the toes of a bard that wants to be the do-everything guy rather than the just make everyone hit like a truck guy?
Because the bardsader is better at doing everything.

Also, RKV and polymorph abuse sound disgustingly optimized for this party.

weenog

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2011, 12:37:50 AM »
Why would a bardsader step on the toes of a bard that wants to be the do-everything guy rather than the just make everyone hit like a truck guy?
Because the bardsader is better at doing everything.

Also, RKV and polymorph abuse sound disgustingly optimized for this party.

...This with a druid and a sorcerer that thinks he's a beguiler in the party.  I don't understand it, but sure, I'll accept it.
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The Sach

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2011, 12:47:04 AM »
Thanks for the advice guys (and that link to the thread really helped!)

You've cemented my choice as a cleric/crusader. I'll still head for RKV.

I understand the concerns with optimising too much. My main point on this are:

1) I have to tank and be the main melee/BSF so I need to be reasonable at this from the get go

2) The DM will eb allowing DMM persist, but I don't plan to take Extra Turning more then once (if that). Namely, I'll be able to persist 1, maybe 2, buff for the whole party for the day. This allows me to play a buff centered role (similar to the bardsader) and still be able to tank.

3) The only reason I would like to be fairly optimised, is that I am being strongly encouraged to not interfere with the other player's decisions. The learning curve can be difficult at times (especially for bards and sorcerors who may have picked less effective spells), and I can only make suggestions on feats, etc, if the player asks me in relation to their concept (example: the ninja suggested she wants to mainly go into throwing, so I'll suggest feats to get her into master thrower PrC).

I just want the build to be able to sit back, buff a bit, and then act like a BSF. Then... IF needed, have the potential to step up, increase the power level slightly to save the day. I am reasonably controlled with how I use my characters, so I can tone it down in game. I would just like the potential to clean things up if desperately needed.

amazingtrapsmith

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2011, 12:52:03 AM »
Thanks for the advice guys (and that link to the thread really helped!)

You've cemented my choice as a cleric/crusader. I'll still head for RKV.

I understand the concerns with optimising too much. My main point on this are:

1) I have to tank and be the main melee/BSF so I need to be reasonable at this from the get go

2) The DM will eb allowing DMM persist, but I don't plan to take Extra Turning more then once (if that). Namely, I'll be able to persist 1, maybe 2, buff for the whole party for the day. This allows me to play a buff centered role (similar to the bardsader) and still be able to tank.

3) The only reason I would like to be fairly optimised, is that I am being strongly encouraged to not interfere with the other player's decisions. The learning curve can be difficult at times (especially for bards and sorcerors who may have picked less effective spells), and I can only make suggestions on feats, etc, if the player asks me in relation to their concept (example: the ninja suggested she wants to mainly go into throwing, so I'll suggest feats to get her into master thrower PrC).

I just want the build to be able to sit back, buff a bit, and then act like a BSF. Then... IF needed, have the potential to step up, increase the power level slightly to save the day. I am reasonably controlled with how I use my characters, so I can tone it down in game. I would just like the potential to clean things up if desperately needed.
When you put it this way, it sounds reasonable enough.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2011, 12:54:18 AM »
Even just playing the "BSF", as a RKV with DMM, you're still going to be much more powerful than the other PCs in this group, I think. Hell... even if you went straight crusader or warblade, and optimized decently well, they'd still probably think you're too powerful. :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Shiki

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2011, 01:05:00 AM »
Mhm?

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Unbeliever

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Re: Help choosing class and then optimising...
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2011, 02:35:00 AM »
My feelings are in line w/ the other posters. 

I think Crusader/RKV will blow the doors off the party as far as I can tell.  I kind of feel that way about a DMM (Persist) Cleric as well, but ymmv.  If you focus on spells that buff your melee ability, you're not really stepping on anyone's toes, so I guess there's that.  I might suggest a DMM (Quicken) Cleric instead, since they are great healers/support casters, free up your actions for melee, and are a little weaker. 

I also like just the straight Crusader or even a Paladin type (especially if you can get something like Pathfinder's Paladin up and running).  But, really, just a straightforward Crusader or Melee Cleric will fit the bill.  As to the Crusader, people have tossed around Bardsader, but you only need a 1 level dip into Bard, and possibly not that if you use Harmonious Knight or something.  Then you grab Song of the White Raven and maybe Dragonfire Inspiration and off you go.  If the Bard isn't planning on taking something like Dragonfire, I don't think you could be stepping on his toes -- at most you're both doing party support, but that's a pretty general thing and you will have none of his skills, spells, diversity, and additional songs. 

Another vote for Crusader might be some battlefield control -- Stand Still, Trip, etc.  The party seems squishy, except maybe the Druid, so keeping the heat off of them might be really good.