Author Topic: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance  (Read 10215 times)

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Conclavia

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2011, 02:45:17 PM »
The 50% miss chances and extra standard action + constant Haste make Swiftblade almost indispensable for a Gish, if you can get it.

The other problem with Swiftblade is that it may not be suitable for Gestalt. Unearthed Arcana specifically lists Eldritch Knight under the unsuitable class combination style of PRC, Swiftblade is very much in that mold.


Yes, and no... In the end it is upto the DM, however the OP should bring to bear the fact that EK (the example) has litterally zero unique features, and is described as a casting fighter, It advances Fighter bonus feats (one time but still does) and casting.
Neither Abjurant Champion or Swiftblade progress Fighter bonus feats or any other like abilities of a melee class except fort and BAB which aren't even class abilities, while offering a plethora of unique class abilities (the reason to take them), It could also be argued for AbjChamp that although it is described as a gish it is a full casting prc and not a mixed prc anyway because it does exactly that advance full casting without advancing any melee class abilities (and as with most all PrC's gives you nifty abilities).  Mystic Theurge is out ofc by my arguement, as it is nil unique.

Taking my argument two ways, Arcane Trickster could be voided (or double sideded per op's DM) My gaming group allows it as it has enough unique abilities to say its not just a combination class (we also have rules that reduce the ability to dip: You are only allowed to have 2 unfinished prc's at a time, and no more than 3 base classes.) Breaking down Trickster: it advances casting and Sneak making it a combination try arguing that it only uses both sides on a level that it does both of these things?

If allowed, try to get to use the Pathfinder Paladin. One of the advantages is that it uses CHA for spellcasting too. Otherwise, don't bother with high WIS.
I'd go for Exalted Arcanist on the Sorcerer side. It allows you to cast Exalted spells as a Sorcerer, which is A Good Thing.
Also, try to get into Swiftblade (Complete Mage web enhancement: awesome-great-super PrC for Gishes. Forget Annointed Knight.
I wouldn't dump STR. It will take a while to get to Polymorph/Draconic Polymorph, and Power Attack still requires STR 13.
Try to swap your mount and familiar for something else.
I'd go with this build: Paladin 6/Swiftblade 10/Paladin 7-10 // Sorcerer 6/Abjurant Champion5/Exalted Arcanist 6/Sorcerer 7-9.
Swap out Paladin spells for feats (Complete Champion).
You need Dodge, Mobility, Combat Casting, Sanctify Spell and Purify Spell. Not ideal, but worth it. Try to grab Arcane Strike and Power Attack too. I'd also grab Law Devotion and power it via Turn Undead, since DMM won't work with arcane spells.

You have prc's on both sides at the same time :-p


----------
Pathfinder paladin if you can get it +1

If Swiftblade doesn't take both sides +1

Do nothing until Abjurant Champion takes only one side x.x

I'm currently playing a VoP: Paladin 6/Risen Martyr X - Favored Soul X+6 in our gestalt game, it's sub-optimal sure but its fun, yeah I'm forced to keep advancing Risen and thus can't add any other PrC's. I'm essentially keeping the party alive with Close wounds, and Delay death currently. While irritating the  dm with auras that damage undead and evil outsiders non-stop (and my rather high AC, another party member casts mage armor on me...)

Build Idea coming in next Post.

Conclavia

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2011, 03:28:30 PM »
If you can get the human paragon (UA), and Rainbow Servant to be  text over table (10/10) Even if you can't you can balance the 6/10 with WM levels I'd play something along this:

STR / DEX / CON / INT / WIS / CHA (High)

Human Paragon (HP), Warmage (WM), Paladin (Pal), Rainbow Servant (RS), Risen Martyr (RM)

HP 1/WM 1
Pal 1/HP 2
Pal 2/HP 3
Pal 3/WM 2 - Entry Trick
Pal 4/RS 1
Pal 5/RS 2 - I'd take the Spirit of healing from dungeonscape instead of the mount, 6xCHAx2 healing spirit has basically become my 1/day "heal" spell at the lower levels, and will always be useful. After this point, Its just a matter of finishing Rainbow Servant, I'd leave paladin now too personally....

??? X8/RS 3-10

a 1 level dip of Prestige Bard would be awesome right here (you can get preform from Human Paragon :P), then go into your prc from boed (risen martyr for CHA to AC?)

I'm intentionally delaying Warmage3/6 for eclectic learning on higher level spells.


Without the Human Paragon:
Pal 1-5 /// WM 1-4 + RS 1 - Entry trick.

Without (10/10): Put WM on the other side to balance your caster level loss

Without an early entry trick, WM 6 is necessary unfortunately, ruining the eclectic learnings.

You can use Sorc instead of warmage, however it forces you to pick the spells for spells known, rather than just knowing them. Beguiler and Dread Necro function the same as Warmage also.

What race to use? Changeling or Human... Use the Heighten/Versatile Spellcaster trick for early entry;
Changeling for recaster (Races of Ebberon) after finishing Rainbow Servant.

Awesomo Moustachio

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2011, 11:18:25 PM »
I'd like to point out to people yet again...

NO campaign setting specific material allowed (eberron, forgotten realms, dragonlance, etc), and NO UA (except for gestalt, and we have to fight for any ACFs we may want) - The Half-Orc already got Wild-shape ranger banned.

The DM also said that he understands that Double-classes (Theurge, Magus, Swiftblade, Abjurant champion, etc) seem less appealing as double classes in gestalt (some in particular, like mystic theurge, which has no class features) however, he is willing to discuss with us some changes/additions to the class.

Any suggestions as to what I should appeal for as additions? I was thinking of either a) Asking him to combine the Anointed Knight class features into the Abjurant Champion, but also it's pre-reqs - or b) Some other defensive magic/abjuration bonuses that would be advantageous to a gish.

BrainCandy

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2011, 11:31:09 PM »
I'd like to point out to people yet again...

NO campaign setting specific material allowed (eberron, forgotten realms, dragonlance, etc), and NO UA (except for gestalt, and we have to fight for any ACFs we may want) - The Half-Orc already got Wild-shape ranger banned.

The DM also said that he understands that Double-classes (Theurge, Magus, Swiftblade, Abjurant champion, etc) seem less appealing as double classes in gestalt (some in particular, like mystic theurge, which has no class features) however, he is willing to discuss with us some changes/additions to the class.

Any suggestions as to what I should appeal for as additions? I was thinking of either a) Asking him to combine the Anointed Knight class features into the Abjurant Champion, but also it's pre-reqs - or b) Some other defensive magic/abjuration bonuses that would be advantageous to a gish.

Someone should beat your DM with a stick for banning Wild-Shape Ranger but being ok with druid.

For Abjurant Champion, just ask your DM if it is ok to take at the same time as another full BAB/high HP melee class. It my be a hybrid, but all you are gaining from it is the spellcasting advancement and features.

Awesomo Moustachio

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2011, 12:20:05 AM »
I'd like to point out to people yet again...

NO campaign setting specific material allowed (eberron, forgotten realms, dragonlance, etc), and NO UA (except for gestalt, and we have to fight for any ACFs we may want) - The Half-Orc already got Wild-shape ranger banned.

The DM also said that he understands that Double-classes (Theurge, Magus, Swiftblade, Abjurant champion, etc) seem less appealing as double classes in gestalt (some in particular, like mystic theurge, which has no class features) however, he is willing to discuss with us some changes/additions to the class.

Any suggestions as to what I should appeal for as additions? I was thinking of either a) Asking him to combine the Anointed Knight class features into the Abjurant Champion, but also it's pre-reqs - or b) Some other defensive magic/abjuration bonuses that would be advantageous to a gish.

Someone should beat your DM with a stick for banning Wild-Shape Ranger but being ok with druid.

For Abjurant Champion, just ask your DM if it is ok to take at the same time as another full BAB/high HP melee class. It my be a hybrid, but all you are gaining from it is the spellcasting advancement and features.

So basically ask that, if I take a class that replicates almost exactly one of the classes abjurant champion emulates (warrior type) I should be able to take it as a single progression.

Could be nice, although I might ask for a bit of slack if there is a straight up-front no... maybe something like progressing mount/lay on hands/ or some other class feature I already have...

EDIT: Or... I just had the thought. Change the second class feature (the free Quicken) to be spells = to class level, not class level/2.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 12:45:04 AM by Awesomo Moustachio »

BrainCandy

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2011, 01:11:46 AM »
You are entering the realm of "what can I get my DM to let me do" That's not really something that can be answered on an anonymous message board.

Conclavia

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2011, 03:35:30 AM »
The only thing campaign specific in my build is the recommendation of changeling (which isn't really as it was reprinted in races of ebberon for all sources) and you can just as easily be human :) And none of the classes I used are "dual" classes either btw, so you shouldn't have an issue with the dm in that regards. I catered to your requirements while sugesting somethings to try and get access to outside of it ;)

Arz

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2011, 01:39:58 PM »
 For the straight gestalt pal/sor look at stalwart sorcerer and wilderness companion acf. Grab the obtain familiar feat and you are pretty much the king of share spell though it gets difficult to keep them all near you. This is more for those dm's who want to keep it simple.

Gnomeo

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2011, 01:57:11 PM »
The only thing campaign specific in my build is the recommendation of changeling (which isn't really as it was reprinted in races of ebberon for all sources) and you can just as easily be human :) And none of the classes I used are "dual" classes either btw, so you shouldn't have an issue with the dm in that regards. I catered to your requirements while sugesting somethings to try and get access to outside of it ;)

Changelings were also reprinted in Monster Manual 3.
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BrainCandy

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2011, 08:54:46 PM »
The only thing campaign specific in my build is the recommendation of changeling (which isn't really as it was reprinted in races of ebberon for all sources) and you can just as easily be human :) And none of the classes I used are "dual" classes either btw, so you shouldn't have an issue with the dm in that regards. I catered to your requirements while sugesting somethings to try and get access to outside of it ;)

Changelings were also reprinted in Monster Manual 3.

True, but the only good reason to take Changeling for a caster is to go into Recaster, which IS campaign specific.

idontmuchcareforit

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2011, 11:50:31 AM »
I built one of these, and used initiate of the sevenfold veil.  Hard to beat prismatic wall surrounding you when you're wading into combat.  Plus you'd qualify for it so late that you could fit all of your suboptimal exalted levels in before you even started it.
it'd be silly not to use a bludgeoning weapon here.
also arcane strike fits well.

Awesomo Moustachio

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2011, 06:12:48 AM »

BrainCandy

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2011, 09:15:05 AM »

Why Exalted Arcanist? TBH it seems like utter crap. I am assuming that you want to cast sanctified spells since you are taking that binder level. Celestial Mystic is a much better PRC all the way around AND it will let you cast more of the sanctified spells. Just take arcane preparation to cast those sanctified spells as a sorcerer. BTW, since are already taking binder, you might as well take 2 levels so you can get suppress sign.

If Abjurant Champion is still taking up both sides of your gestalt, I would not take it. At least not all 5 levels, taking it far enough to get swift abjurations would be about as far as I would go.

Awesomo Moustachio

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2011, 11:32:58 PM »

BrainCandy

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2011, 01:02:16 AM »

 I see what you are getting at about Exalted Arcanist. The level 5 ability will let you use sanctified spells spontaneously without needed arcane prep. I missed that one on the first readthrough, I thought it had to do with the spell list at the bottom. Also, after reading through the class again I noticed something else that is made of win, it gets UMD on it's skill list.

 For Abjuration Champion, I am still not convinced it is worth taking both sides. +10 AC is nice, but IMO AC is only a really big deal if highly optimized. Well, unless you are fighting an endless horde of mooks. Even with 5 levels you would only be able to quicken 3rd level abjurations. On the other hand, you can take 5 levels in another awesome casting PRC while taking fighter4/xxx1 on the other side and get 3 feats and some awesome PRC features.

Awesomo Moustachio

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2011, 02:06:26 AM »

BrainCandy

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Re: Gestalt Paladin//Sorcerer Gish Assistance
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2011, 10:02:41 PM »
You're already down a caster level, lawful good and you can't get campaign specific material, that cuts down on the options a bit. Sevenfold Veil is a good one, but if you aren't going to be able to get all 7 levels it loses a bit of it's shine. You can get into Divine Oracle or Mage of the Arcane Order fairly easy. Oracle would get you Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, a domain and some other stuff. Mage of the Arcane Order would get you into the spellpool up to 6th level. You would get a metamagic feat back too. You could always just take Archmage, but I think the feat requirements will be to steep for a gish.

If you can get by with just 5 levels in your Exalted prc, it will open things up a lot better for you.