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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #160 on: August 15, 2008, 01:36:58 AM »
That could have gone better. Much better. Two people didn't have their sheet ready (they also showed up late), one person didn't show at all. Called it off. Some theorycrafting got done on Hand of Air so I could tone it down, so the night was not a total wash, but it was overall "not a success."


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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #161 on: August 15, 2008, 01:56:02 AM »
I must have this aura of unluck.  Every project I start has problems all the freakin time.

And then I just now rolled the THIRD 2 in a row on d20 rolls.  I only needed to roll a 6!  A 6!  But no, I need to roll low numbers.  Lower than low.  And the damage was max too!  The GitP dice hate me.  The d20s.  The others are fine.

And yeah.  I'll be getting to the stuffs as soon as I can.  Like, tomorrow, or Monday.  Can't do it Sat or Su, but hopefully I'll get to it soon.  I just found out that I have a reason to start up Magic of Origins again, so that's yet another project on my list.
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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #162 on: August 15, 2008, 02:43:15 AM »
I must have this aura of unluck.  Every project I start has problems all the freakin time.

And then I just now rolled the THIRD 2 in a row on d20 rolls.  I only needed to roll a 6!  A 6!  But no, I need to roll low numbers.  Lower than low.  And the damage was max too!  The GitP dice hate me.  The d20s.  The others are fine.

And yeah.  I'll be getting to the stuffs as soon as I can.  Like, tomorrow, or Monday.  Can't do it Sat or Su, but hopefully I'll get to it soon.  I just found out that I have a reason to start up Magic of Origins again, so that's yet another project on my list.

Magic of Origins?

Some more theorycrafting got done, and I redesigned Burning Edge and Water Whip slightly. Namely, just as a Firebender can channel Fire Blast through their melee attacks - including Burning Edge, now - Waterbenders can do so with water whip as well. This resulted in the removal of the bender level +damage bonus to their damage rolls. Additionally, Burning Edge (not Water Whip) was made to be based off of a longsword, so it can no longer be finessed. So a firebender uses Burning Edge to fight at moderate range if they have high Str; melee range or actual ranged attacks are for high Dex Weapon Finessers using their unarmed attack, as well as people that want to trip. Interesting quirk that developed there, but it was the only solution I could think of to keep Burning Edge from being an "OMG MUST TAKE" seed at low levels.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 09:14:37 AM by AstralFire »


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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #163 on: August 15, 2008, 12:31:33 PM »
Check page 2 of the forum.

I shall look into those when I get off work.
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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #164 on: August 16, 2008, 11:18:20 AM »
'nother playtest attempt is tonight. Hopefully this goes smoother.


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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #165 on: August 17, 2008, 11:06:26 AM »
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 11:22:45 AM by AstralFire »


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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #166 on: August 17, 2008, 01:06:42 PM »
*nod* Things went okay, I'd agree. I am a bit miffed that none of the benders ever really got wailed on properly, but we theoretically helped Coro with her build, eh?

I'm looking forward to more playtesting, I still haven't gotten an opportunity to find out just how well the Dust Cloud/Earthsight/Boulder Toss synergy really works!

dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #167 on: August 19, 2008, 09:15:40 PM »
Good news: I'm almost ready to start going over everything.  Bad news: I'm dead tired, and can't think straight.  Tomorrow I've got an early work day, and then the two days after that I'm off, so (cross your fingers) I'll be ready to do some in depth analysis both here and on my MoO project for you AF.

Sorry it took so long, but coming back from a short vacation to triple the work load right off the bat...then a double shift...then a dish shift...then boiling out the fryers...then another dish shift...then tomorrow another fryer day...it takes a lot out of you.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #168 on: August 19, 2008, 10:23:27 PM »
Like Dman, I'm going to start going over things throroughly (and, albeity slowly). So bear with me if this was addressed on GitP, since I never frequented there and am unfamiliar.

Okay, so going through, the first thing I find that I want to address/clarify is the Airbender's Kinetic Grace. Specifically two things. If one traverses a dangerous liquid (acid, lava, etc) what kind of damage, if any, would we be looking at? Or is that not possible. It should probably be addressed under the ability. Also
Quote from: Avatar d20
As you gain in experience, this ability improves. By 10th
level, you need only begin and end your round on a
horizontal surface, as long as you move at least 30 feet in a
round. This increases to 2 rounds at 14th level, and an
indefinite period of time at 18th level.
This seems very awkwardly worded. I get the final ability but the two intermediate increases don't make sense. Can someone explain it? And can we edit it for clarity?
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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #169 on: August 20, 2008, 01:35:31 PM »
Sorry for the wait in response time. My mom hurt her back and my sister's needed some help at her apartment lately, so I actually wasn't at my desk the entire day yesterday.

aftercrescent, how does this read to you:
   Kinetic Grace (Ex): Upon attaining 6th level, an airbender has managed such perfect balance and grace while moving, even gravity and physics must give pause. You can traverse a wall or even a liquid surface as long as you begin and end your move action on a solid, horizontal surface. The height you can achieve on a wall is limited only by this movement restriction. If you do not end your move on a solid, horizontal surface, you fall prone (or into the liquid), taking falling damage as appropriate, if any. If you run over a hazardous surface such as lava, you take normal exposure damage for that round.
   Treat the wall or liquid as a normal floor for the purpose of measuring your movement. Passing from floor to wall or water costs no movement; you can change surfaces freely. Opponents on the ground can make attacks of opportunity as you move up a wall.
   As you gain in experience, this ability improves. By 10th level, you need only begin and end your turn (rather than a single move action) on a solid horizontal surface, as long as you move at least 30 feet in that round. At 14th level you can remain on a vertical or liquid surface for two consecutive rounds before falling, as long as you move at least 30 feet the first round. At 18th level, you can use this ability indefinitely, as long as you move at least 30 feet a round.


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AfterCrescent

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #170 on: August 20, 2008, 07:12:18 PM »
That's a lot clearer. Thanks :clap

Also, sorry to hear about your mom. Hope everything's okay.
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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #171 on: August 20, 2008, 09:10:46 PM »
She's doing alright. Slowly getting better.

Creative aspect (rather than mechanical): Tossing around some ideas for PrCs, haven't actually done much with them yet since these basic mechanics are in the air. I want each PrC to handle a concept that cannot be done by single classing, and I do not want these PrCs to dominate a character's development, probably 3 - 6 levels.

Fire: Sun Warrior. Philosophy: Energy of Life. (Contrast: Energy of Aggression.) Cooperative, provides limited fast healing to party.
Air: Breathstealer. Philosophy: Freedom to do anything. (Contrast: Freedom from anything.) Actively aggressive, short range.
Water: Bloodbender. Philosophy: Change others. (Contrast: Change myself.) Turns foes against selves.
Earth: Stoneshadow. Philosophy: Listen from the dark. (Contrast: Fight and listen.) Opportunistic.


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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #172 on: August 20, 2008, 09:58:31 PM »
For water: number two number two number two number two!  I think I made my point.  The "change myself" fits SO well.  And that can be the one that grants extra "swift actions" like I talked about earlier.  Hold while I find the post....

PrCs are great.  They let you do things that you wouldn't normally be able to do (focus in areas not very specific in the base) and are all around great for the game as is.  PrCs should range from 5 to 10 levels, because sometimes it's just too awesome an ability to contain to 5 levels or fewer.  So a couple 5, a couple 10, a mix is nice.  It should be noted that 10 levels are harder to make, but that's hardly an issue.  I'll be back later today with more.  I'm actually feeling very...adrenaline high...oh shoot, that means I'm going to crash....yeah, today the students started coming back.....it was non-stop from 10:30 with catering to 5 when I left, and it's STILL going.

btw those are awesome ideas...and I'm sorry about your mom.

EDIT: Here goes a bit more on the subject of PrCs, seed review goes down tomorrow (as well as my work over with MoO, don't think I've forgotten about it).

@after: we are shunning the GitP crowd because they are big stupid doo-doo heads.  Actually because they are incredibly dense (with a few notable exceptions, hey AF!) and don't want to change it because "it's my baby and I don't want to see it change".  That's almost a direct quote.  I'd find the actual phrase (it's not too far off) but it's pretty buried.  So....we'll be re-writing most of this stuff.

@stuff: Kinetic Grace: You wouldn't normally take damage for being a foot off of lava, but you'd take damage for stepping in it, so I must ask: what is this representing?  The air ball?  Or just running?  Assuming running: the DMG has rules for walking on hazardous materials.  Or, rather, for making your reflex saving throw for falling them (i.e., not being totally immersed).  Try that as a base.  So you automatically take damage as if you were exposed, but not immersed, in the hazardous material.  Also, why AoOs for moving up a wall specifically?  Should just be normal movement.  Everything else seems fine.  Go epic balance checks!

PrCs: Master of the Bent Way (or something else, name is open: Master of the Turned Sword, Master of the Flowing Water, etc.): waterbender who specializes in deflecting attacks back at the originator, gaining more uses per round, and other goodies related to that.  Gives up versatility in bending forms (fewer known through it, bending level progresses).  Requires Tentacle as a known seed, and Dodge as a feat (possibly note an exception that Expeditious Dodge does not work, though maybe not).  Possibly some Dodge related abilities, a la Swashbuckler and Elusive Target.  Also maybe a BL increase for Tentacle (so you can do more faster), and a bonus increase (faster bonus increase) in Deflect Attack.  I'm just thinking out loud here, stop me if I go on...wait, you can't :P.  Gains the ability to apply Dodge to multiple opponents, gains a higher dodge bonus (possibly a dodge bonus every level and it can be applied to any opponent, split up, so you face 10 guys and you can get +1 against all, or one guy and you get +10 or something).  Dodge can interact with Deflect Attack to do something nifty, like higher DA bonus, and a chance to direct it back better.  Or something else.  Ideas....HO!  Oh, and balance 8-10 ranks required.

Wavering Master of Freedom (something else, PLEASE, I am terrible with names): airbender who specializes in flight and freedom of movement.  Uses this to move fast, move everywhere, and attack from everywhere.  Think Aang.  He is one.  Expeditious Dodge required, with a note that Dodge does not work (though maybe not).  Also any flight seeds required.  Tumble ranks required, 8-10.  I'm having much less inspiration here, water is my home-element...sad...(Earth is second.  Odd how my two most favorite are these two that can actually be restricted by materials..)  Well, on with it.  Long, long range.  Well, short range-long range.  As in, long range to attack from, but close-quarters fighting (melee attacks, but....spring...attack...).  Passively active.  What seems to be passive is actually aggressive, as in actively finds a passive aggression.  Wow I'm not making sense.  Back track.  Use Spring Attack/Fly By Attack.  Build on those feats.  This does mean it is feat intensive, but we can fix that: require Expeditious Dodge and Mobility, FBA and SA granted at level 1.  Or just SA and FBA granted later.  Either one works.  So...how to make SA actually useful...turn it into a Dervish Dance eventually?  I actually like this, grant extra attacks during a SA depending on your level in the PrC.  It needs more to be viable though.  Flight too, works for flight.  Maybe also grant better maneuverability faster and better speed faster.  Capstone of flight as long as there is air for one round (begin and end on ground)?  Or longer?  Which do you see?  I think maybe use a stat to determine time in the air, or one round.  It certainly can't be just straight flight.  Also improve Kinetic Grace faster and better.  Does not grant new seeds known, or grants them very rarely.  I prefer no new seeds known.*  Ideas....HO!

Master of the Shadow Stone (I actually like that name.  Note the master theming): earthbender specialized in reaction actions.  Sensations.  First thing's first: grants Decisive Strike.  Also: NOT based on AoOs...that's water...this is defensive offense....it's different.  Focuses on strong low numbers of hits, and strong defense all around.  It will require some feat and that feat will work with some class feature to do awesome things....yeah I'm getting really tired now.  I'll try to wrap this up quickly.  Yeah, focus on solid defense and slow, steady, solid offense.  No balance here, just both at the same time, or switch if you want to.  Head on, no non-sense.  You get the idea.  Ideas...HO!

Master of the Blazing Sun: Firebender focused on the source of fire: life.  Abilities include fast healing and the ability to bolster the bodily strengths of creatures.  Also able to use the strengths of creatures.  Not really sure how to do this.  I don't think we'll be tying this one into the class or a feat, much less two of them.  This is a sort of about-face for most firebenders, so yeah.

This is by no means the list of the only PrCs to be made.  I'm a fan of multiple PrCs.  A few at a time, but more than one for each element, and mabye some element neutral PrCs, or element PrCs for members of a different element.  And maybe some non-canon ones for multi-class benders.  Have fun.  I'll see you when I'm not exhausted from students.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 01:41:28 AM by dman11235 »
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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #173 on: August 21, 2008, 03:19:53 PM »
The idea for Kinetic Grace was just for an airbender to be running fast and with such grace that they can walk on walls and water, etc. It is something of crib/merger of Air Scooter and Up the Walls (which I excised as a result), while Scooter got changed to more of a mount thing.

Actually, the 'contrast' points were supposed to be summaries of the normal element bender philosophy, hence why I was pointing at an AoO based Earthbender (looking at the Dai Li, who are sneaky and a lot more mobile than most Earthbenders.) But we could do two PrCs for each element, one that specializes in the element's normal philosophy and one that goes against it. That would be interesting, I think, the issue is just making sure that there's a reasons both stay in the base class AND PrC out, making them customization options. I like the ideas for Master of the Bent Way a lot, it is a specific direction to take Waterbenders in -  Wavering Master of Freedom, though, feels like the design philosophy for Airbender simply accelerated, but the idea of building on something like Dervish Dance would probably be a good replacement for the Glider Flight class feature, which I've always felt is a bit unappealing.

There is the possibility of merging Master of the Bent Way and Bloodbender to an extent, getting a single waterbender PrC that emphasizes alteration of shaped water and controlling these water constructs much more than raw masses of water.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 03:25:49 PM by AstralFire »


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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #174 on: August 21, 2008, 05:45:27 PM »
Why limit it to two PrCs?  There should be enough PrCs to be able to do what you want.  About 12-15 for this project (err on the side of 15), with no set "this many here, and that many there".  Except one for each bender at least.  The "master" line.  After that we have a few that (while still making sense and fitting) are just something else.  Then we have supplements to the supplement if we want more.

The easiest way I see to make sure you want to do both is to not grant more seeds known with PrCs.  Except combination PrCs, those need to still grant seeds known.  Also, some of the classes (I think all, actually) have a couple more class features gained later on, and those would be lost.

I think you misread what my MotBW was supposed to be.  It was supposed to be reactive.  You know, AoO, using Deflect Attack to its extreme.  Though I do like the idea of a shaper Prc for water (and earth?  It could be open to both, just focuses on the golem seed).  I really like that one.  Kind of like the Ectoplasmic Adept from CPsi only not sucktastic.

I really don't like the glider flight class feature.  It sucks.  It really does.  Class features should not rely on an item to function.  I think that it should be a seed actually.  One more general than "you can fly if you have a glider!" though.  Because that's almost as stupid.  The airbender class feature should be as what I remember you having.  The speed boost with some skill boosts.  The glider can be represented by a seed of some sort.

As for the Dai Li, I'm thinking a possible combination PrC.  Not combination, but PrCs open to one element that copy a different element.  Like Iroh said, you can learn a lot by studying the different elements.  It's how he got lightning, by studying water.  Maybe it should be one for each element that studies the opposite element?

I'll have more later, after I go through water and earth again.  Then I'll go through fire.

EDIT: Right, so I just got guilt tripped into performing with my brother's pep band, so I won't be able to do much tonight.  I'll still get water+earth done though.  The rest will probably wait until tomorrow.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 08:19:04 PM by dman11235 »
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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #175 on: August 21, 2008, 11:08:20 PM »
The speed boost was for Fire. Air can currently fly under its own power with a seed, which by mid-levels is useful in battle, and by higher levels really obsoletes the glider entirely. The skill boost had a nearly identical seed, so it got subsumed into the seed.

Here's a replacement for the glider:

   Wind Dancer (Ex): Upon achieving 5th level, you can become a whirling tornado in melee once an encounter. As a free action at the start of your turn, you can initiate a wind dance that lasts until the end of your turn. While in the wind dance, you can take a full attack action (for melee attacks only) and move up to the listed distance between each attack. (5 feet initially; 10 feet at 9th level, and 15 feet at 17th level). However, you must move a minimum of 5 feet between each attack when using this ability, and you cannot return to a square you just exited (though you may return to that square later during your full attack). You are subject to attacks of opportunity while dancing, but may tumble normally as part of your move. If you are prevented from completing your move, you are also prevented from finishing your full attack. You may not make a normal 5-foot step in the same round that you use a wind dance.

At 13th level, you may perform a wind dance twice per encounter. At 20th level, you may perform wind dances as often as you like.

That leaves Ski as the only super-boring class feature. There's definitely something cooler out there than Rock Steady/Climb for Earth and Burning Rush/Energy Resistances for Fire, but those are far from bad so replacing them isn't a high priority for me. Ski, though, Ski is just the most boring form of water walk/+30 to balance checks on water ever. Not likely to get used much.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 11:12:50 PM by AstralFire »


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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #176 on: August 22, 2008, 12:56:19 AM »
List of PrC ideas:

General
- Puppeteer: Generalized Bloodbender, since all have the Puppet seed. Improves Golem as well, and all of the elemental 'wall' forms (Water Shield, Wind Barrier, Earth Wall, Wall of Flames)
- Eclectic Sage: Picks up some of the class features of the other benders using a 'talent tree' method. Extra swift action uses, lower BAB.
- Warrior of the Elements: Hybrid class for Martial Adept
- Mindbender: Hybrid with Psionics, improve forms with PP expenditure

Air
- Breathstealer: Up-close melee punisher, deals damage to self to harm others.

Earth
- Stoneshadow: Seems to be a very martial, less controllery Earthbender.

Fire
- Hearthfire: Team coordinater and defender. Fast healing, grant members access to an immediate action defense/offense retort ability.

Water:
- Master of the Bent Way: Attack deflector specializer. Probably quite a bit beefier, given the intentional thrust in the spotlight.


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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #177 on: August 22, 2008, 02:25:24 PM »
Okay, do this thing!

Note: all bending PrCs might have a minimum BL requirement.  Also, some names might change if we think of better ones.  And lastly, I'm thinking out loud here.  Nothing's set in stone, I'm just rattling off things I like to see.

Well, other than the name on Puppeteer, I like that idea.  Change description to bender who focuses on controlling creatures.  Actually, I kind of like my constructor idea.  So we might be able to split them.  A PrC focused on bloodbending (the Puppeteer), which focuses on controlling other creatures (and himself, there is no reason you wouldn't be able to control the water in you).  Gains better healing abilities, better blood bending abilities (including some immediate action ones maybe?), and some way to utilize it on yourself.  Master of the body, sort of thing.  I just don't see how this ties well into golems.  Requires Bloodbending as a seed, and Healing Waters.  Also something else, probably a skill requirement (bluff?  Diplomacy?) or feat requirement.

The Engineer: open to all benders with a golem seed.  focuses on making a better golem, and more of them.  Gains the ability to create multiple golems with the same concentration actions (maybe as many as 3 or 4 with the same concentration, that can lead to as many as 3 or 4 strong, 3 or 4 weaker, and 3 or 4 weaker still, so 9-12 golems, pretty sweet), better golems (some stat boosts on your golems, maybe some more abilities for your golems at the same time), and possibly something else, like golems persisting beyond your concentration (limited times per day, not long), and maybe multiple checks to create multiple golems at once.  Requires ranks in Know: (engineering), and Golem seed.  Possibly something else, probably not.  If so, maybe a knowledge skill.

Eclectic Sage: Any bender, takes the ideas of opposing disciplines and applies it to theirs.  Gains extra uses for known seeds, but does not allow to bend opposing elements.  Gains some class features of others, and access to new seeds, inspired by other disciplines.  Lightning goes here, take it out of fire.  I'm sure we can think of something for each other element.  It's a bit of work, but it will be totally worth it.  Requires Know: (bending).  Also something else.  Definitely something relating to each bending discipline.

Warrior of the Elements: improves IL and BL.  Gains some maneuvers and stances, gains some seeds known, but not as many as straight either class.  Grants stance(s) based on element and a specific discipline (think of a good one!  Maybe based on an element and the closest discipline) and other combination abilities, like the ability to use maneuvers with bending forms as if they were a favored weapon of the corresponding discipline (see stances) and as if the were melee weapons, so blasts can use melee maneuvers.  Maybe something else though, I'm still getting into ToB.  Requires level 3 maneuvers of the corresponding discipline, and seeds from your bending class.  Also require ranks in Know (bending) and Martial Lore.  Possibly something else thematic.

Mindbender (name change, already a PrC called this):  Improves ML and BL, granting some abilities to spend PP for either a bonus on your next bending check or some other bonus.  Also as you level grant more combo abilities.  Most of them psionics-->bending, rather than the other way around.

Breathstealer: New name, or change description.  Sounds like you steal their health for you.  Also, I feel that these should encompass basic bending philosophy, not opposing.  That's what the Eclectic Sage is for (and possibly some other ones for specific elements).  So air would encompass freedom.  I'm thinking spring attack usage, and FBA usage.  Use speed to avoid hits, and use speed to land hits.  Accurate, and the accuracy is deadliness.  Doesn't hit hard, but hits well.  I'm thinking....grant skirmish.  Maybe an accelerated, or varied skirmish, but probably not.  Gains the ability to "dervish dance" while using SA or FBA and an airbending seed.  Use only with melee attacks or bending attacks.  I like this PrC to add that, and not the base class.  I don't see the airbender as specific enough to grant such a shoe-horning ability.  It should be something like a speed bonus (assisted travel?) and some abilities to add to jump and balance checks.  For this PrC, I'm liking something like granting an additional number of attacks during SA based on class level, and flurry of blows dealies.  So you've got skirmish dealing your damage, and your accuracy....an additional class feature that grants a bonus to attack while moving.  Requires: the flight seed, know (bending), tumble, and expeditious dodge+mobility.  Grants SA at level 1, grants FBA at some level (maybe 1, maybe later).

Stoneshadow: earthbender gets Decisive Strike (accelerated progression to get the level 11 ability?  As a capstone...), and other martial abilities.  Utilizes bending to aid melee.  Steadfast defense and steadfast offense.  Hit hard and slow, get hit hard but not.  Grants accelerated DR progression, and possibly other defensive abilities.  Grants DS (as stated) and other offensive abilities.  No balance between the two, just keeps on going.  By no balance, I mean not an adaptive defense.  I mean the defense and offense are set, not fluctuating, not adaptive like water.  Requires know (bending), earth armor, and endurance.  Possibly diehard, or grants diehard, and maybe toughness makes a showing here somehow.

Heartfire: firebender focusing on the fire of life.  Grants bonuses to physical things of himself and allies, and takes fire out of enemies.  Uses the natural fire in others to fuel bending, even.  Grants healing abilities, buffing abilities, harming abilities, and debuffing abilities.  New seed maybe?  Uses the fire of others: deals HP (stat?  I bet HP would be better) damage to make bending forms more powerful (bonus on bending check?  Target is the origination of the source?  Lowering of the DC, lowering of the enemies HP, as long as they are affected?).  Grants fire to others: bending check (new seed?) to heal others and bolster them, bolster by means of a bending bonus to str, dex, and con, or maybe flat temp HP and temp attack/damage/AC boosts.  Increases in effectiveness with level.  Requires know (bending), heal, some fire seed (not sure which one yet fits), and a feat.  Not sure what fits best.

Master of the Bent Way: waterbender focusing on turning opponents strengths against them.  Gains improved ability to use Deflect Attack, and the ability to use it from further away (to protect allies).  Gains use from Dodge, combining it with this.  Gains the ability to reflect attacks, rather than deflect, possibly only against dodge targets.  Gains better dodge bonus, and the ability to split it up.  Also gains more uses for the Octopus (Tentacle) seeds, and the ability to use it in conjunction with DA and Dodge.  Possibly allow ally protection to only deflect, and later allow reflect as well.  By reflect I mean AoO use.  Requires dodge, know (bending), balance, and possibly something else.

New ideas: not sure on prereqs for these, these are more flowing than the above ones.  These are really unformed as far as ideas go.

Breathstealer: the real breathstealer.  Airbender focused on using the air around to hamper opponents.  As in, eventually actually get to steal breath, by creating a vacuum in front of the enemy's face.  So the ability to suffocate.  It will be hard to do, and maybe be a 1/so many rounds thing.  Also gain the ability to change the pressure of air around the limbs of enemies, makings them move slow when they need to move fast, and fast when they need to move slow.  This manifests as penalties to attack/damage/AC/movement skills.  Favors up-close combat, also gains the ability to use those eddies that so hamper enemies to improve their own skill.

Masters of the Flowing Rock: for earth, these are the Dai Li.  Specialize in using earthbending to help movement, and a free moving, flowing fighting style.  No, it's not inspired by air and water...what are you talking about.... :smirk  This is one of those "contrary classes".  Utilize bending to aid in movement, and utilize movement based attacks, and the restriction of movement for opponents, not unlike a combination of Water Whip and the "Breathstealer", the non-new idea version (the air philosophy PrC above) that is.  Also maybe grant a way to hide.  In rock.  And a form of evasion that is you melding into rock.  Maybe some immediate action movements that put you into rock, thus blocking LoE, making it hard to attack you.  Requires maybe opposed checks of some sort, so it can be at will (but restricted by being an immediate action).

Now to some seeds.

Starting with earth....after lunch.
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dman11235

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #178 on: August 22, 2008, 07:46:39 PM »
Before I get to the seeds, I have an idea.  Okay.  So there is earth in every living creature.  And water.  And fire (re: life force).  And air (if dissolved in the water).  Maybe there shouldn't be just the waterbending seed Bloodbending.  Maybe it should be a PrC open to all benders, but water has the easiest time getting in it?  We can do that by requiring a waterbending feature that would be granted by a different bending discipline taking that feat that gets it for them.  Just an idea.

Earth seeds:

Armor:
[spoiler]The speed thing is weird.  How about just saying that it reduces your speed as if it was medium armor?

Also, what the heck is that last augment supposed to mean?  And then it goes on to say "such as the Armor form" in it....I have a feeling that this is supposed to be for a different seed?

Oh, and it should be a bonus, not a circumstance bonus...[/spoiler]

Bouldertoss:
[spoiler]Note that this is only 90 damage average at level 20.  And, you can quicken to move action, right?

This needs augments.  It needs a way to get better with those extra check points, other than quicken (every seed needs it).  Something like, bonus damage per point exceeded would be great (2/point?).  And then an increase.  Maybe....I honestly can't think of one.  But this actually brings me to my next question, isn't there a seed that basically does this already?  We can just add on an augment for an area affect instead of an attack (a la Warhulk) to that one...  I don't know.  Open discussion on this seed.  It needs to be better.[/spoiler]

Catapult:
[spoiler]This needs work.  First off, damage for flinging them?  Should be 1d6/10 feet, following other examples like this.  Second, it just feels barren.  Thirdly, why not a straight up option?  It would be the distance flung horizontally, only vertical.  So the same damage, only they end up where they were.  Or how about, you have a set amount you CAN fling them, that determines how much damage they take (via going higher), and they can land in any square in range.  Also needs an interaction with ceilings, open discussion there I say.[/spoiler]

Density:
[spoiler]First off, change "mud/quicksand" to fine sand, or dust.  Mud and quicksand are just sand with water added, doesn't make sense.  Secondly, needs an augment for increased area.  I propose +1/5' cube.  Discussion needed.  I think looking at Change Phase with water will help here.[/spoiler]

Dirt Spray:
[spoiler]Why not make it a touch attack?  Auto-blind for a round for a touch attack?  Sounds pretty reasonable.  With an augment to allow an area be affected (multiple opponents) allowing a reflex save.  Also an augment to affect more than one opponent, taking a penalty (much like Manyshot) on the attack roll.  Discussion open for this one.  It needs to have more, that's for certain.[/spoiler]

Dust Cloud:
[spoiler]Darken:

This looks fine I think.

Sandswallow:

I say let this one go and just have it be Dirt Spray+Darken.  I mean, other than the damage, it's all there.  Discuss.[/spoiler]

Earth Blast:
[spoiler]Shoting people in the face with rocks?  Yay![/spoiler]

Earth Wall:
[spoiler]Seems like more need to be available at the beginning.  As in, start with four 5'square segments, and go up on a 1/1 basis from there.  By the time you hit level 20, you can make mazes.

I think we went over the immediate action one earlier.  I like the idea, but it seems too....iffy.  Maybe add an augment to allow it to block more than one attack?  Or have it be as is and have flavor say that Deflect Attack is this....I don't know.  Discussion.[/spoiler]

Earth Wave:
[spoiler]see Wave with water.  You even had water in the augments...strange...[/spoiler]

Earthsight:
[spoiler]No permanent duration.  Just make it easier to maintain it.  And maybe have duration boosts, but not permanent.  If it's permanent, it's a wasted seed slot for something not even all that great.  So if permanent, give it something you can still use.  Maybe if you make it permanent, you can use it to gain Tremor Sight.  Though, anyone who has it can just take 20, even though you can't, because they can just keep trying until they get it.  This seed needs major revision.[/spoiler]

Earthwalker:
[spoiler]That's it?  Needs more to be its own seed.  More augments, though I'm not quite sure what it should get.[/spoiler]

Golem:
[spoiler]see Golem for water.[/spoiler]

Headcracker:
[spoiler]Love it, but a couple things.  Plants have a lot of earth.  So do oozes.  All living things, actually.  Secondly, it needs an increase augment.  Not sure how to go about it yet though.[/spoiler]

Imprison:
[spoiler]Switch the two augments on the exceed/increase bit.  Also, why no reflex save?  And why do they have total cover, but can still breath?  Needs thought.[/spoiler]

Metalbend:
[spoiler]Needs a clause that seeds with this template on them can affect metal creatures as well.  So things like Headcracker would now affect an iron golem.  Otherwise fine.[/spoiler]

Move Earth:
[spoiler]see Move Water.[/spoiler]

Puppet:
[spoiler]see Bloodbending.  Also see the beginning of this post.[/spoiler]

Quake:
[spoiler]See Ice Shards.[/spoiler]

Rubble Wave:
[spoiler]Forget what I said earlier about Dirt Spray needing an AoE augment.  Just combine it with this.  This looks fine.[/spoiler]

Shape Earth:
[spoiler]See Shape Water.[/spoiler]

Spike:
[spoiler]See Spout.[/spoiler]

Tectonic:
[spoiler]Needs to be clarified, big time.  First off, materials differ in hardness.  Secondly, you're making walls?  Since when?  I thought you were raising/lowering the ground?  Also, they should take damage for dropping.  Possibly for raising, but dropping definitely.  Normal falling damage is all.  Lastly, its not terribly useful.  Discussion open for making it more useful, when Earthwall is there.[/spoiler]

That's all for now, my room is insanely hot.
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AstralFire

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Re: Avatar d20 fixes
« Reply #179 on: August 22, 2008, 11:34:07 PM »
Before I get to the seeds, I have an idea.  Okay.  So there is earth in every living creature.  And water.  And fire (re: life force).  And air (if dissolved in the water).  Maybe there shouldn't be just the waterbending seed Bloodbending.  Maybe it should be a PrC open to all benders, but water has the easiest time getting in it?  We can do that by requiring a waterbending feature that would be granted by a different bending discipline taking that feat that gets it for them.  Just an idea.

Ehhh. That borders a little bit too much on going against the show's feel, for my tastes. I see where you're going with it, but yeah.

Quote
Armor:
[spoiler]Also, what the heck is that last augment supposed to mean?  And then it goes on to say "such as the Armor form" in it....I have a feeling that this is supposed to be for a different seed?[/spoiler]

That was meant to be on the end of Earth Blast.

Quote
Bouldertoss:
[spoiler]Note that this is only 90 damage average at level 20.  And, you can quicken to move action, right?

This needs augments.  It needs a way to get better with those extra check points, other than quicken (every seed needs it).  Something like, bonus damage per point exceeded would be great (2/point?).  And then an increase.  Maybe....I honestly can't think of one.  But this actually brings me to my next question, isn't there a seed that basically does this already?  We can just add on an augment for an area affect instead of an attack (a la Warhulk) to that one...  I don't know.  Open discussion on this seed.  It needs to be better.[/spoiler]

Right, you can quicken to move action, getting you 180 average damage. This damage ignores miss chances. That seems pretty big to me, given that they are a primary form of defense at high levels. As a bonus, you get to move people around. This altogether felt too difficult to model well with Move Earth.

Quote
Catapult:
[spoiler]This needs work.  First off, damage for flinging them?  Should be 1d6/10 feet, following other examples like this.  Second, it just feels barren.  Thirdly, why not a straight up option?  It would be the distance flung horizontally, only vertical.  So the same damage, only they end up where they were.  Or how about, you have a set amount you CAN fling them, that determines how much damage they take (via going higher), and they can land in any square in range.  Also needs an interaction with ceilings, open discussion there I say.[/spoiler]

I kinda assumed falling damage went without saying.

You can do straight up. Catapult lists ranges of "up to" and "can be", so you can negate most components.

"Affected subjects take falling damage as normal. If the subject strikes a wall or ceiling, they take damage as though they had fallen the distance they traveled."

Quote
Density:
[spoiler]First off, change "mud/quicksand" to fine sand, or dust.  Mud and quicksand are just sand with water added, doesn't make sense.  Secondly, needs an augment for increased area.  I propose +1/5' cube.  Discussion needed.  I think looking at Change Phase with water will help here.[/spoiler]

Done.

Quote
Dust Cloud:
[spoiler]Darken:

This looks fine I think.

Sandswallow:

I say let this one go and just have it be Dirt Spray+Darken.  I mean, other than the damage, it's all there.  Discuss.[/spoiler]

Sandswallow is a softer form of Solid Fog, and allows an Earthbender a method of movement control against flying creatures. I'd say it very much needs to stay.

Quote
Earth Wall:
[spoiler]Seems like more need to be available at the beginning.  As in, start with four 5'square segments, and go up on a 1/1 basis from there.  By the time you hit level 20, you can make mazes.

I think we went over the immediate action one earlier.  I like the idea, but it seems too....iffy.  Maybe add an augment to allow it to block more than one attack?  Or have it be as is and have flavor say that Deflect Attack is this....I don't know.  Discussion.[/spoiler]

Changed.

I considered Deflect Attack taking the place of the immediate action, but Deflect Attack specifically blocks things with attack rolls. Earth Wall can protect against things like Meteor Swarm, making it the more useful choice, unless the opponent has an ability that passes through walls.

Quote
Earthsight:
[spoiler]No permanent duration.  Just make it easier to maintain it.  And maybe have duration boosts, but not permanent.  If it's permanent, it's a wasted seed slot for something not even all that great.  So if permanent, give it something you can still use.  Maybe if you make it permanent, you can use it to gain Tremor Sight.  Though, anyone who has it can just take 20, even though you can't, because they can just keep trying until they get it.  This seed needs major revision.[/spoiler]

Dropped the permanent duration. Not sure what's so bad about this seed, though - it's basically Feel the Flow, only more useful since Earth is more common than Water.

Quote
Earthwalker:
[spoiler]That's it?  Needs more to be its own seed.  More augments, though I'm not quite sure what it should get.[/spoiler]

As long as you're fighting on the ground, you've got a swift Dimension Hop at-will that ignores barriers. That seems rather worth a seed to me, and it's not bad for overland travel once you can use it as a swift.

Quote
Headcracker:
[spoiler]Love it, but a couple things.  Plants have a lot of earth.  So do oozes.  All living things, actually.  Secondly, it needs an increase augment.  Not sure how to go about it yet though.[/spoiler]

Plants do, but in the show, Earthbenders can't do a thing to 'em for flavor reasons. Toph specifically complains about it in The Runaway.

Quote
Imprison:
[spoiler]Switch the two augments on the exceed/increase bit.  Also, why no reflex save?  And why do they have total cover, but can still breath?  Needs thought.[/spoiler]

It's a Fortitude save to switch up the nature of most of their abilities, and visually I imagine soft stone quickly shifting around you, then solidifying. It's a Fort Save to resist the imprisonment and break your bonds before they can form fully.

Change: "While imprisoned, a subject has five rounds worth of air before he begins to suffocate (as rules for drowning.)"

Quote
Metalbend:
[spoiler]Needs a clause that seeds with this template on them can affect metal creatures as well.  So things like Headcracker would now affect an iron golem.  Otherwise fine.[/spoiler]

Headcracker mentions that itself. It seems pretty clear to me.

Quote
Rubble Wave:
[spoiler]Forget what I said earlier about Dirt Spray needing an AoE augment.  Just combine it with this.  This looks fine.[/spoiler]

Combined.

Quote
Tectonic:
[spoiler]Needs to be clarified, big time.  First off, materials differ in hardness.  Secondly, you're making walls?  Since when?  I thought you were raising/lowering the ground?  Also, they should take damage for dropping.  Possibly for raising, but dropping definitely.  Normal falling damage is all.  Lastly, its not terribly useful.  Discussion open for making it more useful, when Earthwall is there.[/spoiler]

Swapped in the earlier hardness table. You can make walls with Tectonic - much thicker walls than Earthwall. Earthwall creates thin stuff, these are 60-inch thick things. All you have to do is raise a line of squares.

I'd say Tectonic is actually pretty useful at lower levels. You create squares that are completely impassable to ground-bound movement. At higher levels, it's a great function for doing things like destroying a building by unsettling the ground its on or creating a completely impregnable, virtually indestructible wall around something. (It's three times as thick as Earth Wall, assuming you make a space only 5 ft. wide.)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 11:41:23 PM by AstralFire »


Avatar: The Last d20 Supplement
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