Hellfire Warlock, when to start taking it?

[BrainCandy]

Well, the title pretty much sums up the question. I just rolled up a warlock that I intend to take into Hellfire Warlock, but I really value the imbue item class feature. IMO it is one of the best class features in the game and should put the lock in t3 at least.

So, when do most people branch into Hellfire, before or after warlock 12?

[Solo]

If you plan on crafting stuff like contingent spells, you should wait until after.

[sir_argenon]

that ability should come on line no later than 6th or 9the level anyway.  it makes no sense to have it come so late.

[BrainCandy]

that ability should come on line no later than 6th or 9the level anyway.  it makes no sense to have it come so late.

If you know how to get the 12 ranks in Knowledge:Planes you need to get into Hellfire Warlock by 6th level, I am all ears.

[sir_argenon]

sorry for not being clear.... i was referring to the imbue item ability.  not to HFW. 

to answer your question, with the warlocks that i build i really like to get into HFW asap.  so after warlock 9, i bail out, and come back afterwards if possible.

[veekie]

If you plan on crafting stuff like contingent spells, you should wait until after.

Seconded, Hellfire is nice damage and all, but its just damage, and nothing compared to well applied crafting.

[bkdubs123]

What's so great about Imbue Item? Isn't a 1-level dip in Artificer for the Item Creation ability just as good? Sure, the UMD checks are a little higher, but if you fail you can just retry the next day rather than waiting until you level up.

[BrainCandy]

What's so great about Imbue Item? Isn't a 1-level dip in Artificer for the Item Creation ability just as good? Sure, the UMD checks are a little higher, but if you fail you can just retry the next day rather than waiting until you level up.

  under Artificer's item creation rules.

Having a caster level of 3 would kind of suck for making items, don't ya think? Plus, I can't use any campaign specific stuff anyway. As far as failing the check goes, with deceive item and 15 ranks of UMD plus cha and other bonuses, I will autopass any UMD check I will need to make.

[bkdubs123]

What's so great about Imbue Item? Isn't a 1-level dip in Artificer for the Item Creation ability just as good? Sure, the UMD checks are a little higher, but if you fail you can just retry the next day rather than waiting until you level up.

  under Artificer's item creation rules.

Having a caster level of 3 would kind of suck for making items, don't ya think?

Exactly. But that's only for the purposes of meeting item prerequisites, not for using the ability. So you'd still have your normal Warlock caster level + Item Creation's ability to emulate spells for crafting. It would be a lot better than waiting until 12th level I would think.

Plus, I can't use any campaign specific stuff anyway.

But yeah, that sucks.

[Dawnmor]

Grab it later after you grabbed Chameleon (RoD) for 2 levels so you can get a floating feat that you change daily depending on the needs of the group.

And after you get that one MoI Vestment that sucks up ability damage once you receive it so you can hellfire all day and not have to worry about getting killed by con loss.

[BrainCandy]

Plus, I can't use any campaign specific stuff anyway.

But yeah, that sucks.

Yeah, or I'd have probably rolled an artificer from the get go. Everyone I know that DM's has some strange aversion to Eberron, no one will let me play one.

Grab it later after you grabbed Chameleon (RoD) for 2 levels so you can get a floating feat that you change daily depending on the needs of the group.

And after you get that one MoI Vestment that sucks up ability damage once you receive it so you can hellfire all day and not have to worry about getting killed by con loss.

Thanks man, but I know all of that stuff. I have a build in mind, I was just kicking around the pro's and con's of putting off PRC's until after warlock 12. I am only level 2 with this char and I can wait until the last minute to decide, level's 1-9 will be the same no matter what.

Like Sir Argenon, I think imbue item should have come at level 6-9 or so. Deep enough so you can't just dip and get it, but not so late as to put off most PRC's.

[X-Codes]

Yeah, or I'd have probably rolled an artificer from the get go. Everyone I know that DM's has some strange aversion to Eberron, no one will let me play one.

Artificiers are harder to deal with as a DM than even other Tier 1 classes.  If the game goes at such a pace that there's no downtime for item creation, then the Artificier is going to be hamstrung since it won't be able to use the vast majority of it's abilities, and there's no guarantee for the rest to be as effective as the player might like.  If there's a ton of downtime then, eventually, it's just so the Artificier can craft items while everyone else screws around not being useful.

Hence, any time I make an item crafter, it's going to be an Anima Mage binding Astaroth.  If there's no downtime available, then just bind something else that day.  Chameleon works too, although something that's oft overlooked is the fact that a Chameleon doesn't need 12 levels of Warlock to get pretty much any spell it wants for item pre-reqs.  With enough of a level investment, it can probably cast anything you need in it's own right.

So, if your focus is going to be item creation with this character, strongly consider using either Binder (can probably get away with using Zceryll to summon monsters with the required spells for a given item), Anima Mage, or a Warlock entry into Chameleon (both 4 and 6 levels are good entries).

[BrainCandy]

Yeah, or I'd have probably rolled an artificer from the get go. Everyone I know that DM's has some strange aversion to Eberron, no one will let me play one.

Artificiers are harder to deal with as a DM than even other Tier 1 classes.  If the game goes at such a pace that there's no downtime for item creation, then the Artificier is going to be hamstrung since it won't be able to use the vast majority of it's abilities, and there's no guarantee for the rest to be as effective as the player might like.  If there's a ton of downtime then, eventually, it's just so the Artificier can craft items while everyone else screws around not being useful.

Hence, any time I make an item crafter, it's going to be an Anima Mage binding Astaroth.  If there's no downtime available, then just bind something else that day.  Chameleon works too, although something that's oft overlooked is the fact that a Chameleon doesn't need 12 levels of Warlock to get pretty much any spell it wants for item pre-reqs.  With enough of a level investment, it can probably cast anything you need in it's own right.

So, if your focus is going to be item creation with this character, strongly consider using either Binder (can probably get away with using Zceryll to summon monsters with the required spells for a given item), Anima Mage, or a Warlock entry into Chameleon (both 4 and 6 levels are good entries).

I came this close to rolling a binder instead of the lock. But as I said, I have already rolled the warlock. I'll probably wind up taking a level of binder to offset the Hellfire Warlock con damage because my DM is balking a bit at the Incarnum book but I won't go nearly far enough to get Zceryll or Astaroth. Plus if I was going to roll an Anima Mage, I'd do it properly and roll a real arcane caster.

Also, Artificers don't really need downtime to craft items. All they need is a portable hole and a Dedicated Wright (ECS 285). Start the process with the Wright in your portable hole and when the proper amount of time has elapsed your item will be finished in the hole. As constructs, Wrights have darkvision and don't need food or water so it really is fire and forget crafting. You could put a Quill of Scribing or two in there as well to make your scrolls.

[Ivory Knight]

I'd second Chameleon(2-8 levels, if you still want Warlock 12), it is just too damn useful for crafting.

If you have decent CHA or INT, Eldritch Theurge(dual Warlock/Arcane Caster PrC from Complete Mage) with entryclass of your choice(Wizard for spellbook, Bard/Sorc to avoid MAD) might be worth a shot.

Another interesting take would be Cloistered Cleric(Magic & Spell Domains) 1/Warlock2/Cloistered Cleric +2/Eldritch Disciple 10/Chameleon 2/ Hellfire Warlock 3
With divine casting, you can just use (lesser) restoration & if need be a pearl of power, to get rid of your con damage from using Hellfire.

[Bigtuna]

Anima mage!

Start with Leraje - for precise shot (which helps with to hit at lov levels when bab isn't something you have) - The Ricochet can double your dam (but ask you GM first, it's not really written taht well)
 
Once you can turn you self inv. (can't remember the invocation) you start binding the vestiges that gives sneak attack and sudden strike. When you have anima mage 8-9 you end up with 3d6 sneak + 3d6 sudden. And since you are inv. thats help most of the day.
Later - when more things start to have see inv or true seeing Naburius heals your con dam from hellfire - making the hellfire worth it.

Also Binders gives you a lot of options (depending on what you bind at the start of the day), something a warlock desperatly needs.
 

[skydragonknight]

@Buildcrafters: The character is already in play as a Warlock 2. Consider those levels 'locked' in place and work from there.

@OP: 'Before' only if your party is really struggling with getting things dead; to help with that, I recommend Craft Wondrous well before 12th and crafting your own (Greater) Chausible of Fell Power. Craft Arms and Armor gives generic enhancement bonuses to everyone's gear as well as the Warlock's Scepter for enhanced firepower.

The toughest stretch will be from 6-10 before Vitriolic Blast. Eldritch Chain isn't terrible damage-wise, but relying only on it isn't wise as it's subject to SR and SR starts to become more prevalent in those levels. I'd recommend some wands of "SR: none" spells to help you during your growing pains. Level 11 will be fine with Vitriolic and 12 you can start crafting.