Author Topic: What would make Combat Techniques viable?  (Read 8627 times)

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veekie

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2011, 05:10:38 PM »
Something for Sunder could be to use as a limb-attack. Now you can't usually destroy a limb, but inflicting a Broken condition(see the PF mentioned) on a natural weapon shouldn't be impossible.
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-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

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zook1shoe

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2011, 12:15:00 AM »
Yeah it seems like there should be rules for losing a limb. Or destroying a limb.

Midnight_v

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2011, 12:35:40 AM »
Something for Sunder could be to use as a limb-attack. Now you can't usually destroy a limb, but inflicting a Broken condition(see the PF mentioned) on a natural weapon shouldn't be impossible.
I don't want that used against my players ever. . . but I guess...
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Unbeliever

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2011, 01:53:04 AM »
Something for Sunder could be to use as a limb-attack. Now you can't usually destroy a limb, but inflicting a Broken condition(see the PF mentioned) on a natural weapon shouldn't be impossible.
I don't want that used against my players ever. . . but I guess...
Reasonably powerful healing magic should resolve it, like Panacea.  It's no worse than getting your weapons sundered (and, again, I think Make Whole should work on them, too, until someone gives me a good reason otherwise). 

It is unfortunate that both Sunder and Disarm can be more easily used against the players, b/c they tend to actually wield weapons (not always, though, viz. Druids) whereas many many monsters don't.  So, maybe this just levels the playing field. 

veekie

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2011, 05:10:41 AM »
Yes, the Broken condition on items can be explicitly repaired with a relatively quick craft check or a Mending spell. On a limb that'd be a relatively quick Heal check or any Cure spell.

Technically its more sprained than broken, granted.

So basically, the first time you sunder a limb, you need to hit it, then deal enough damage(say 1/5 of your total health?) to Break it. You take the damage anyway. As a tradeoff, the maximum damage you can do with this is 1/5 the target's total health.
The second time you sunder that exact same limb, if you deal at least that much damage, it is severed and requires more intensive care or Restoration to repair. This is reasonably unlikely until you reach the levels where you have enough attacks for that to be worth it. Heck, taking that much damage is more likely to kill you outright.

Quote
So you just Break a creature's natural weapon, or natural armor, then fight normally.
Might want to throw in a spell failure or concentration check penalty though. I favor the latter.

As for grappling, I think the basic effect should just be a Grabbed status on the target, which does not limit the attacker(save for the grappling limb), Grabbed would then limit the target's movement(they must either throw you off or perform a Pull/Push manuever to move), grant the grappler cover(the victim being the cover),  allow you to use follow up grappling moves like pinning/choking, and add a bonus to other combat maneuvers(for starters, you bypass the touch attack needed, and add say...+4 to the CMB?).
Moves that make the target prone or move the target ends the grapple unless you move along.
You are not grappled unless the TARGET returns the favor. If both parties are grappled they suffer the penalty until they break free.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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Maat_Mons

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2011, 04:14:36 PM »
If you allow Make Whole or a similar spell to work on magic items then Sundering becomes much more viable.  Is there any RAW reason that it doesn't?

From the make whole spell description:

Quote
The spell does not restore the magical abilities of a broken magic item made whole, and it cannot mend broken magic rods, staffs, or wands.

Unbeliever

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2011, 05:39:02 PM »
If you allow Make Whole or a similar spell to work on magic items then Sundering becomes much more viable.  Is there any RAW reason that it doesn't?

From the make whole spell description:

Quote
The spell does not restore the magical abilities of a broken magic item made whole, and it cannot mend broken magic rods, staffs, or wands.
Thanks, I apparently suck at the reading.  For a game that wanted to make Sunder more viable, obviously some relatively easy way to fix things would be important.  Although we've started abstracting away a lot from that sort of stuff anyway.

veekie

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2011, 07:34:38 PM »
If you allow Make Whole or a similar spell to work on magic items then Sundering becomes much more viable.  Is there any RAW reason that it doesn't?

From the make whole spell description:

Quote
The spell does not restore the magical abilities of a broken magic item made whole, and it cannot mend broken magic rods, staffs, or wands.
Thanks, I apparently suck at the reading.  For a game that wanted to make Sunder more viable, obviously some relatively easy way to fix things would be important.  Although we've started abstracting away a lot from that sort of stuff anyway.
Didn't post the fulltext of the Broken condition earlier but, remmber, it's at half health, not shattered.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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Midnight_v

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2011, 08:26:04 PM »
Wait... so this broken condition is supposed to be a fix for sunder, right?
I think we're making it too complicated. I don't think we NEED to create a new condition.
Maybe because I'm trying to patch it with the least amount of change.
 However, I'm going to reiterate that sunder shouldn't every be used, and there are a slew of arguments for that, I'm not going to repeat them all but yeah "Sundertard" is a term that existed for a long time and for a good reason. If there are people here who really want it they'll easily shout me down cause my investment in that partifular argument is low.
..............................................
However, mechanically I'm thinking something like "Exorcism of Steel" where you strke the weapon and it does less damage.
-4 to hit -4 to damage for 1 min. Or something like that.


Quote
  It is unfortunate that both Sunder and Disarm can be more easily used against the players, b/c they tend to actually wield weapons (not always, though, viz. Druids) whereas many many monsters don't.  So, maybe this just levels the playing field 
I'm betting they just wildshape into a different creature. Leveling the playing field is NOT what's being discussed. Its kinda shoe horning there. However, I've been doing a lot of dm'ing lately so I've been trolling through the dm threads round the net and that needs to not exist.

  Hurts fighters more than anyone, your version requires monks to get a panacea to fix a broken hand, basically. So while yeah druid... yeah monks, too.

I'm going to have to think something up...  :(



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Unbeliever

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2011, 09:59:34 PM »
NB:  I was talking about leveling the playing field between monsters and players, not between classes.  For what that's worth.  I tend to think that these sorts of maneuvers are more for the players' benefit anyway: they have more energy to devote to funky tactics and anytime a monster needs something like this the game designers just invented a mechanic for it anyway, like Mountain Trolls and Bebiliths. 

But, something like Exorcism of Steel is fine.  I think I once experimented w/ a Sunder Natural Weapon mechanic that was along those lines:  inflict penalties to attack and damage.  It'd be nice if it scaled based on something, damage or level or attack bonus or what have you, but it sounds fine to me. 

Also, I don't think requiring some kind of healing or whatever to cure the problem is all that big a deal.  Such abilities should be pretty easy to come by in D&D, especially after a few levels.  But, maybe I just play w/ (am?  Seems doubtful) less dickish DMs than most people. 

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2011, 11:39:25 PM »
The best fix for Sundering is to mess with enhancements or allow a way for a noncaster to reassemble the original weapon without it costing too much (which is what I did with my Weapons Fix: They can Sunder all they want, it just gets rid of the base weapon unless they specifically target the augments).


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veekie

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2011, 02:51:00 AM »
Quote
Wait... so this broken condition is supposed to be a fix for sunder, right?
I think we're making it too complicated. I don't think we NEED to create a new condition.
Its built right into Pathfinder though. Its not exactly a new condition.
Whats new is only adding natural weapons and natural armor to it.
Also you can sunder armor in PF.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2011, 04:47:32 AM »
Also you can sunder armor in PF.

This may be the one change they've made that I can agree with.



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Endarire

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2011, 07:52:55 PM »
Dealing 1/5 a target's HP at level 1 (twice, via Whirling Frenzy or TWF) can be a grudge monster.  Most people don't even have 10 HP.  Just hit the target and there goes a limb.

What happens if you double-sunder the head?
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
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veekie

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2011, 10:18:48 PM »
Notice how I didn't state body part, I stated natural weapon, and natural armor?
You can't just sunder a head. You can batter the worg's teeth and then shatter them, but you can't just remove a head that way.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2011, 10:20:17 PM »
Notice how I didn't state body part, I stated natural weapon, and natural armor?
You can't just sunder a head. You can batter the worg's teeth and then shatter them, but you can't just remove a head that way.
Tell that to Mr. Hydra.
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veekie

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2011, 10:33:18 PM »
Hydras have special rules for removing heads yes. But for game balance, straight, possibly fatal called shots just don't work.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Nachofan99

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2011, 11:20:38 PM »
The DM is the key to making almost all of these attack forms viable.

If you've never had your Fighter Trip someone down a slippery ramp to die in a pit trap, blame your DM.
If you've never had the opportunity to Bull-Rush someone into an Ochre Jelly, spiked wall or lava tube, blame your DM.  Bull-rush also ignores some Concealment so...
If you've never had Sunder be a useful attack form ever, blame your DM although you can also blame WotC for Shatter being just better almost always.
If you've never had to Grapple/Pin stack on a Frenzying Frenzied Berserker with over 500 points of overflow damage until his Frenzy wore off, blame your DM.
If you've never had Overrun be a useful attack form, I concur.  But Mounted Overrun can be pretty decent.

Bla bla bla, flaming headed off at the pass.  If your DM wants to make Wizards and Clerics and Druids more awesome, they will continue to never give the Fighter Nice Things.  Even giving the Fighter Nice Things, the Wizard, Cleric and Druid are all still better; so what's the harm in possibly increasing the fun for the Fighter?

I agree strongly with Solo where the ability to affect multiple opponents at once with these attack forms would help A LOT; it would definitely help make Overrun a good low level way to get multiple "attacks" early on.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, though, the DM is the largest part of making these attack forms useful.  If your DM never bothers making any of these attack forms useful, then no player will ever use them.  Make them useable all the time and...magic will still be better.  So who cares? Let your players have more options.

Wizards get SoLs and SoDs starting at level 1 and never stopping.  Why can't martial types have conveniently placed Golden Axe inspired "circumstance pits" to allow them to have SoDs at all levels as well?  Tit for Tat. Can't all the classees have some fun?

veekie

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2011, 09:25:16 AM »
Quote
The DM is the key to making almost all of these attack forms viable.

If you've never had your Fighter Trip someone down a slippery ramp to die in a pit trap, blame your DM.
If you've never had the opportunity to Bull-Rush someone into an Ochre Jelly, spiked wall or lava tube, blame your DM.  Bull-rush also ignores some Concealment so...
If you've never had Sunder be a useful attack form ever, blame your DM although you can also blame WotC for Shatter being just better almost always.
If you've never had to Grapple/Pin stack on a Frenzying Frenzied Berserker with over 500 points of overflow damage until his Frenzy wore off, blame your DM.
If you've never had Overrun be a useful attack form, I concur.  But Mounted Overrun can be pretty decent.
You're describing a sufficiently absurd amount of work and restriction that as a DM I'd really rather just ban martial characters than do it that way. The rules are inadequate.
FIX them.

Trip doesn't work well because large monsters easily crush your tripping skills, unless you're mono specialized. What Trip needs is merely a way to reduce the impact of Size. Using the Pathfinder CMB/CMD size mods help. The tripped status scales up nicely if you allow it to apply to alternate movement modes, as long as the subject does not have teleportation.

Bull Rush doesn't work because the distance is minute. Bullrushing someone off the cliff requires that they be already at the edge. Smashing someone into a monster or hazard requires that there be a hazard. Consult your local GOD wizard for placing hazards ALMOST onto your opponent so you can shove them into those, instead of directly onto. What Bull Rush needs is a way to get actual distance on it, as well as better control of the direction(a Pull maneuver basically). What the feats need is a way to move your enemy without moving yourself. It also shares the size problem.

Sunder doesn't work because it requires that your opponent be equipment dependent AND that you don't care about loot. What it needs is a degree that is useful, but doesn't destroy loot. It also needs to be able to affect creatures not equipment dependent. Pathfinder Sunder helps on two degrees, loot is broken, but not destroyed and you can sunder anything worn. The change would be to add the ability to impede creature based opponents by sundering natural weapons, natural armor and special attacks.

Disarm is a similar equipment dependent problem as Sunder, except its rooted in equipment. I'd change it to Steal, where you generally use it to yoink any equipment or plant equipment. Basically combat sleight of hand.

Grapple, the root problem is that its complex, and almost as bad for you as the other guy. I'd just make it make the opponent grabbed, grant bonuses to delivering other manuevers(+4 and you skip the touch attack), and you aren't grappled yourself unless your opponent grapples you right back. Opponent cannot move unless he bull-rushes you, or moves you.
Secondary grapple moves
-Pin - Prevent opponent from performing any physical actions other than to break free.
-Pick Up - Allows you to move, treating the opponent as an object. You can use the opponent as an improvised melee or thrown weapon, damaging both target and weapon.
-Ride - Opposite of Pick Up, you mount your opponent. Details pending.
-Choke - Follow up action to Pin. Commence choking a bitch
Modified Manuevers while grappling
-Trip - When tripping an opponent, you can choose to end the grapple, or join them. If you have improved trip, ending the grapple lets you throw the opponent, and joining the opponent as prone gives you a free Pin attempt.

Throw in Pathfinder's Dirty Trick maneuver, basically you impose a short duration status effect.

For Overrun, you simply replace the knockdown with the combat maneuver of your choice.

What all of them have in common as a problem. It requires feat investment to perform them safely at all. However, any combat trained person would be aware of how to do all these things, and how to guard against them. Perhaps removing the AoO, as long as you're performing it armed and has at least +1 BAB, would do it.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Nachofan99

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Re: What would make Combat Techniques viable?
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2011, 12:17:45 PM »
Quote
You're describing a sufficiently absurd amount of work and restriction that as a DM I'd really rather just ban martial characters than do it that way.

Yes, the DM has to work.  You do have to make sure the low tiered characters get to have fun.  That's exactly why the higher tiered classes are so dominant at all times; lazy DMs. That's another reason why these combat techniques have such low viability; lazy DMs.