Author Topic: Tier 1's vs. Leadership (and variants)  (Read 5852 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Tier 1's vs. Leadership (and variants)
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2011, 11:23:10 PM »
3.0 material that wasn't mentioned in 3.5 is still valid (as they're the same edition after all, otherwise 3.5 would've been called 4th edition), so it still applies as the rule was carefully explained in the Epic Handbook that has no counterpart in 3.5.

The 3.5 Leadership rules, found in the PHB and DMG, supersede the 3.0 rules.  Since there is in fact an update (a new printing of the feat), the old rule is not valid.  Furthermore, note that the Legendary Leader example in Heroes of Battle does indeed have all Monks as followers (that's the only example character with leadership and spelled out followers I could find).

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier 1's vs. Leadership (and variants)
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2011, 11:30:03 PM »
On the other hand, I don't see any RAW way of controlling who you attract as followers (and the rules say they're "generally low-level NPCs").  You only explicitly get to pick your cohort's race, class, and alignment.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier 1's vs. Leadership (and variants)
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2011, 11:38:03 PM »
True.  From the examples, it looks like you're expected to get people of similar class, but that's about all you can tell up front.

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Re: Tier 1's vs. Leadership (and variants)
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2011, 11:46:59 PM »
Quote
so it still applies as the rule was carefully explained in the Epic Handbook that has no counterpart in 3.5.
Yes it has. SRD. :p

On the other hand, I don't see any RAW way of controlling who you attract as followers (and the rules say they're "generally low-level NPCs").  You only explicitly get to pick your cohort's race, class, and alignment.
Not even that. You can try to recruit a specific class/race/alignment but it's up to the DM if there will be such an NPC available to recruit.
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retkin

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Re: Tier 1's vs. Leadership (and variants)
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2011, 12:28:02 AM »
Just be careful you don't get your character attracted as a follower to one of your followers, or enthralled to a more powerful thrallherd if your abusing that.

JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Tier 1's vs. Leadership (and variants)
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2011, 08:28:04 AM »
I don't know if "Tiers" is entirely appropriate to Leadership.

Levels 1-5 ... Leadership doesn't exist, so it's below Tier 6. More like unrate-able.
Level 6+ ... You are down one feat. Big deal, assuming you took a Tier 1 Cohort.

The combo of you down 1 feat, and a Tier 1 with minor limits, down 1 full spell level;
I think the cohort catches up to all but the best of Tier 3s by levels 7 or 8.
That's right around level 10 for you.
I wonder how this compares to Summoning for standard Wiz or Sorc.

Level 11-15 ... No real cost to you, you can get feats if you need them, and Cohort is near Tier 2r all by itself.
Level 16-20 ... Cohort now solid Tier 2, should be some serious synergy going on by now.


So ... 0 + Tier 5 up to 3 + 3 or 2 + 2 + the back of a waiter's order =~~= average Tier 3 after you get it.
Perhaps Tier 4 if including the 5 level dead zone.

 ???
yes exactly, in low level games leadership and its ilk are not even a threat
So there you have it, Tier 1 wins because they are effective during a broader range of play.

EDIT: if you count shards of leadership, it can start at level 2... ... or is it level 1 now?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 08:30:08 AM by JohnnyMayHymn »
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skydragonknight

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Re: Tier 1's vs. Leadership (and variants)
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2011, 10:07:11 AM »
On the other hand, I don't see any RAW way of controlling who you attract as followers (and the rules say they're "generally low-level NPCs").  You only explicitly get to pick your cohort's race, class, and alignment.
Not even that. You can try to recruit a specific class/race/alignment but it's up to the DM if there will be such an NPC available to recruit.

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Echoes

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Re: Tier 1's vs. Leadership (and variants)
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2011, 07:59:58 PM »
Depends. Leadership gives better action economy, but your WBL will have to be divided betweeen two characters. So anything with low gear-dependency is a win with Leadership while high gear-dependency classes will suffer quite a bit.

Actually, your cohort gets equipment as appropriate for an NPC of their type, and then you can choose to equip them further if you want. Out of the box, a Wizard cohort is going to be pretty much good to go with no cost to you, especially if you can purchase their gear (using the total value of the list) rather than take the preset list of items. Even without that, though, they still don't really need anything to be awesome.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier 1's vs. Leadership (and variants)
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2011, 08:04:39 PM »
There's also the case of synergies where all that matters is having the right class
IE: spellthief with factotum cohort
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shandiris

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Re: Tier 1's vs. Leadership (and variants)
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2011, 01:03:29 PM »
3.0 material that wasn't mentioned in 3.5 is still valid (as they're the same edition after all, otherwise 3.5 would've been called 4th edition), so it still applies as the rule was carefully explained in the Epic Handbook that has no counterpart in 3.5.

The 3.5 Leadership rules, found in the PHB and DMG, supersede the 3.0 rules.  Since there is in fact an update (a new printing of the feat), the old rule is not valid.  Furthermore, note that the Legendary Leader example in Heroes of Battle does indeed have all Monks as followers (that's the only example character with leadership and spelled out followers I could find).

JaronK

Power of Faerun also has NPC with mostly statted out cohorts and followers. Only problem there is that Leadership is treated as Epic Leadership there as long as you have enough of an score.