Author Topic: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.  (Read 5224 times)

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Midnight_v

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Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« on: June 10, 2011, 09:27:56 PM »
 Well like the title says. I've been reading and reading and trying to figure out what this might look like.
I want to create an adventure that takes all the D&D isms into mind. I don't want to "ban" very much no TO, but everything else gets in. On that same token... it has to be challenging.
So I'm wondering in immediacy what monsters should be ran. What kinds of encounters should be run, ambush, arena, chase, encampment, that allow for the optimized pc.
So I'm thinking of starting levels 1-4. . . Keeping with the rules the pcs have 4 encounters per 24 hour period.
What are your favorite encounters? What do you think would be challenging for the other optimizers?
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WarlockLord

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2011, 11:35:38 PM »
Shadows are pretty tough.  You could run "Triumph of the Necromancers" with the shadows having taken over the world, and the shadows are mixed in with well optimized undead spellcasters.

dark_samuari

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2011, 11:52:28 PM »
I might throw something together but I'll aim for lower level adventure examples.

Midnight_v

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2011, 12:58:43 AM »
Shadows are pretty tough.  You could run "Triumph of the Necromancers" with the shadows having taken over the world, and the shadows are mixed in with well optimized undead spellcasters.
I see... you're referencing the tome I take it. That is good, I'm hesitant to throw the party into a postapocalyptic realm "just after the apocalypse" but they do work. I imagine anything with good immunities throughout the type works. Undead, contstructs, outsiders... I'd add fey to that list but I think illusion goes in a different direction after a manner.
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Unbeliever

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2011, 05:54:25 PM »
How optimized are we talking about?  My usual baseline is God Wizard or straightforward Druid, w/ some of the things that I find most obviously annoying (Contact Other Plane, for instance) taken out. 

I find most adventures can be tailored for such parties w/ a little bit of tweaking of the bad guys.  We are playing through Savage Tides right now, about midway through, and a few class levels here or there and the right combination of abilities have allowed for challenging and interesting encounters.  Although I've also started to cheat a little bit to give the monsters abilities I think are entertaining, like allowing Solos to quicken their spell-like abilities for free.  Though the same could be done by just doubling the number of monsters, which would probably be more effective.

Midnight_v

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2011, 06:07:26 PM »
Well, what I want is to find a perfect level of challenge w/o talioring adventures over and over again. I feel like using undead heavy campaigns, construct heavy campaigns things like that really devalue the rogue. Maybe I can increase that by adding lots of traps, but that might punish parties that don't have a rogue.
I'm really wondering is there a sweet spot, that exists without fucking over one or another group.
I remeber back in the day really liking adventures like against the giants, and the first underdark.
3.5 gives way more options so I wonder what in practice would an adventure look like that can stand against paranoid Wizards, and CoDzilla's? Yet not rape the norms? Is there such a possiblity?
I do think traps are inmportant part of that equation, but I'd like to build the adventure from the ground up.
So maybe if I came up with 2 Iconic parties. A tier 1 party, as well as a Tier 3, party. Examine what is a challenge to each of them potentially?
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Littha

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2011, 06:19:22 PM »
Well, what I want is to find a perfect level of challenge w/o talioring adventures over and over again. I feel like using undead heavy campaigns, construct heavy campaigns things like that really devalue the rogue. Maybe I can increase that by adding lots of traps, but that might punish parties that don't have a rogue.
I'm really wondering is there a sweet spot, that exists without fucking over one or another group.
I remeber back in the day really liking adventures like against the giants, and the first underdark.
3.5 gives way more options so I wonder what in practice would an adventure look like that can stand against paranoid Wizards, and CoDzilla's? Yet not rape the norms? Is there such a possiblity?
I do think traps are inmportant part of that equation, but I'd like to build the adventure from the ground up.
So maybe if I came up with 2 Iconic parties. A tier 1 party, as well as a Tier 3, party. Examine what is a challenge to each of them potentially?

If you are expecting your players to run a rogue without ways to bypass crit immunity then you dont really want an "Optimized" adventure.

Midnight_v

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2011, 07:45:32 PM »
Well I gues you have a point there I imagine they would have something yeah.
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Unbeliever

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2011, 07:57:43 PM »
[shrug]  I sort of look at this the opposite way.  Kind of like what Littha just said, anyone playing rogue, fighter, or what have you type in my games is usually quite optimized anyway, so they can hang w/ the rest of the game.  We just started a 15th level game and my ToB Master of Nine is just as tough as my gf's wizard god character.  So, as a party we have a rough sense of parity, so you at least know at what level of difficulty to tailor the adventure ... in general.  Some foes fuck us over in various degrees -- the factotum relies on a bit of poison, so the undead were more of a headache for her -- but that's all fine and just part of adventuring.

I personally find traps, at least the usual variety of them, impossibly boring, so I dispense w/ them altogether.

JaronK

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2011, 08:12:46 PM »
My recommendation is to run the adventure in a more Shadowrun style than D&D style.  D&D style assumes that enemies meet you at your strengths, and you try and be strong enough.  For example, a Fighter is good at hitting things, so you're expected to throw combat challenges at the Fighter so he can do his thing, and then if his numbers are better he wins.  Rogues are good with traps, so you throw stealth adventures and traps at them so that they can show off their nifty numbers and win at that too.

Shadowrun style already assumes everyone's really good at what they do.  A sniper WILL kill any enemy... if he can be in a solid sniping position and make sure the enemy gets into his line of fire at the appropriate time for the kill.  A B&E expert WILL defeat the electronic locks and bypass the alarms safely.  You don't challenge the party by putting big bosses in front of the sniper's line of fire or advanced locks in front of the B&E expert.  Instead, you make missions where the challenge is for the players to figure out how they can accomplish the goal by defeating locks and sniping people.  It's the players who have to figure out what the right sniping position is and how to use their ability to one shot kill any one enemy every few seconds to accomplish the overall mission.

So, if you want to run an optimized D&D game, try that style.  Instead of just having big numbers, make a complex dungeon where sounds of combat in one area can alert lots of people... so the party has to figure out how to use their optimized combat warriors to defeat enemies without triggering those alerts.  Have enemies with fallback points, settable traps, and general intelligence, so they can't just smash through.  Give them missions where getting out without any alarms going off is as important as getting the maguffin in the first place.  Have a wide assortment of enemies who must be defeated in a variety of ways and have a variety of defenses, so that just one optimized attack method won't work on everyone... for example assaulting the tower of a powerful Necromancer whose defenses include bound Arrow Demons in ambush situations, Incorporeal Undead who can make good use of the walls, and Golems to absorb blows... thus requireing players to get creative with their powerful abilities.

JaronK

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2011, 08:27:38 PM »
I think JaronK has many great suggestions there. Well said.

Littha

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2011, 08:57:21 PM »
One of my favourite things to do is integrate traps with a normal encounter.

Fighting 5 skeletons in a room is boring
Fighting 5 skeletons in a room where all the floor space is covered in trapdoors that open/close in a pattern is fun. (reflex saves or fall to a lower level)

Same thing with having the room collapse and might prompt the spellcasters to use their spells on mud to stone or wall of force/sound bridge rather than all out combat.

Obviously the pits don't work against characters who can fly (level 5 or so up) but having the floor panels project a prysmatic ray upwards (filling the whole square to the roof) and the like gets the same response.

These sorts of things can make encounters challenging to higher optimisation groups even if they would usually one shot your minions.

Rejakor

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2011, 09:18:50 PM »
Most adventures I run are optimized, in that I present the party with multiple threats/things going on in nearly every encounter or scenario, so most of the time is spent with them scouting, running around, figuring out what to do, and getting caught in hilarious situations like watching their friends walk into a trap but not being able to do anything about it.

I've always done this.  I think it's because i'm either good at eyeballing sheets to know what my parties can handle, or because I create realistic enemies/organizations and don't metagame.


At a higher level of play and optimization... honestly it comes down to just not having DMPC BBEGs that you care about, and not having cookie cutter railroad plotlines.  As long as you realize that there's very little your PCs can't dismantle given time, you can create all kinds of things for them to rip to pieces, and then chuck time pressure and personal relationships and deep plots and unexpected things that give them a minor heart attack ('he uses DARK SPEECH ON THE SWARM?!?') on top to be the actual challenge, and it works really well.  You can kill PCs at any time, you're the DM, that's not the point.  Just realize that a T-Rex in a room isn't actually going to be a challenge for your level 11 PCs, and that to actually challenge them you need to be sneakier or simply overload them and force them to make real decisions (where to go, whether to use their last spells or not, save the girl their character is crushing on or the world... and the threat to the world might not be real, etc etc)... and it's really easy to run games even with TO material in it.

Of course a very basic part of this is realizing that the CR system is a piece of crap and being able to judge the capabilities of PCs from their character sheets.

I am very confident that even in a game with metanode casters and dusk giant two-step martial monks, I could challenge the party.  Hell, it would probably be easier, they'd likely want to do their own thing a lot more and give me all kinds of hooks to drop shit on them from.

Midnight_v

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2011, 10:59:23 PM »
I'm thinking of using "Phyrexia" undead + constructs.
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snakeman830

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2011, 11:53:23 PM »
I'm thinking of using "Phyrexia" undead + constructs.
Doing that, you'll have to homebrew some stuff.  You need some diseases that are really frightening.

Really, Phyrexia is a fantastic idea for an optomized campaign, so long as you stay true to what it's described with.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Solo

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2011, 12:03:25 AM »
Quote
So I'm thinking of starting levels 1-4. . . Keeping with the rules the pcs have 4 encounters per 24 hour period.
Well, it's not a hard and fast rule that you have 4 encounters/day.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 12:10:12 AM by Solo »

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The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Midnight_v

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2011, 12:08:30 AM »
I'm thinking of using "Phyrexia" undead + constructs.
Doing that, you'll have to homebrew some stuff.  You need some diseases that are really frightening.

Really, Phyrexia is a fantastic idea for an optomized campaign, so long as you stay true to what it's described with.
Well to be honest... I'd like to homebrew as little as possible, or at least before I dip into the homebrew, examine what exists.
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snakeman830

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2011, 12:12:45 AM »
Just pointing out that one of the hallmarks of Phyrixia is really nasty diseases.  Unfortunately, there really are none in D&D (Mummy Rot is as bad as it gets).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Midnight_v

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2011, 12:32:11 AM »
Just pointing out that one of the hallmarks of Phyrixia is really nasty diseases.  Unfortunately, there really are none in D&D (Mummy Rot is as bad as it gets).
I gotcha yeah. There might be something worse in the BOVD. However, I realize the issue with even saying that word is people like me have every mtgbook and some people who do will automatically be like "You're doing it wrong" so pyrexia as it is in D&D is out as a concept.
The idea is to have an invasive force with lots of varied immunities that isn't standard fare you expect to see together. I do get you though. I'll bookmark "Disease like effects" for later levels. I think the elder evils book had something like that.
...
So, it is an invasion situation, at low levels it can be an adventure like anyother. The players have lots of options of where to go and what to do, and those plots matter, but in the backdrop somekind of machine hell is bleeding into the world.
Inspirations: Borg, Xictic invasion (Rifts), Phyrexia, Tecno-organic virus dudes (marvel).

Just at a glance I see some interesting constructs, Electrum horrors, Maugs, Hammerer, pulverizer, Zodar, stealing folk and applying the half-golem template to them, but... yeah... we might mod an existing virus that changes you into something towards turns you into a machine like critter.
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Solo

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Re: Creating and "Optimized" Adventure.
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2011, 12:34:14 AM »
"We are the Reforged. You will stand down and prepare to be upgraded. Resistance is futile. Comply or be eliminated."

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The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.