Author Topic: optimizing criticals  (Read 5707 times)

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Archao

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Re: optimizing criticals
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2011, 10:44:11 PM »
Quote
Iron Power (Ex): When using an iron or steel weapon, a 4th-level disciple of Dispater gains a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls. Furthermore, his threat range is doubled as if he were using a keen weapon. At 8th level, the insight bonus improves to +2, and the threat range triples. This ability does not stack with the keen weapon quality, but it does stack with the Improved Critical feat.
Not this 8th level ability, not this triple, but this ability (Iron Power) stacks.
That seems like a flimsy argument for a (purposefully) false interpretation. It is Iron power at 4th, and it is still Iron Power at 8th. The placement of the final statement at the end covers all of it, not just the sentence immediately preceding it.

SorO_Lost

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Re: optimizing criticals
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2011, 12:33:12 PM »
Quote
Iron Power (Ex): When using an iron or steel weapon, a 4th-level disciple of Dispater gains a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls. Furthermore, his threat range is doubled as if he were using a keen weapon. At 8th level, the insight bonus improves to +2, and the threat range triples. This ability does not stack with the keen weapon quality, but it does stack with the Improved Critical feat.
Not this 8th level ability, not this triple, but this ability (Iron Power) stacks.
That seems like a flimsy argument for a (purposefully) false interpretation. It is Iron power at 4th, and it is still Iron Power at 8th. The placement of the final statement at the end covers all of it, not just the sentence immediately preceding it.
What ever your post was meant to say, you just agreed.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: optimizing criticals
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2011, 05:44:44 PM »
Not sure what you think you're getting at Soro, but the entire ability stacks with Improved Critical, yes.  This means we have the 4th level version giving (*2*2=*3) and the 8th level version giving (*3*2=*4).

If we start with a kurki, and Improved Critical, anyone who has the Iron Hews ability, but is not yet level 8 in Disciple of Dispater, has a 9 number crit range (3*3=9) and anyone who has at least 8 levels in Disciple of Dispater has a 12 number crit range (3*4=12).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
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hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
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[/spoiler]

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SorO_Lost

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Re: optimizing criticals
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2011, 09:19:12 PM »
Not sure what you think you're getting at Soro, but the entire ability stacks with Improved Critical, yes.
And that is what I brought up. I was observing the fact Iron Power its self stacks with Improved Critical followed by a build with a superior critical range.

A 18~20 crit range is three numbers wide. 18, 19, & 20.
Exotic Weapon Master adds +2 to that for a five number total: 16~20 or 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.
Improved Critical (x2) + Iron Power (also x2 at 4th level) add together becoming an x3 multiplier.
5x3 is 15: 6~20 or 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. (my post said 5, I was off by one).

Comparatively, more Dispater focused build has a 9~20 range.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

X-Codes

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Re: optimizing criticals
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2011, 11:11:24 PM »
Not sure what you think you're getting at Soro, but the entire ability stacks with Improved Critical, yes.
And that is what I brought up. I was observing the fact Iron Power its self stacks with Improved Critical followed by a build with a superior critical range.

A 18~20 crit range is three numbers wide. 18, 19, & 20.
Exotic Weapon Master adds +2 to that for a five number total: 16~20 or 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.
Improved Critical (x2) + Iron Power (also x2 at 4th level) add together becoming an x3 multiplier.
5x3 is 15: 6~20 or 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. (my post said 5, I was off by one).

Comparatively, more Dispater focused build has a 9~20 range.
Exotic Weapon Master is a 3-level class in Complete Warrior.  I don't know what you're talking about.

Tr011

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Re: optimizing criticals
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2011, 11:18:01 PM »
About the Weapon Master from OA I think. But even then:
Quote
additional +2 to the threat range for his weapon of choice. This +2 bonus is applied last, after any multipliers, such as those given by the improved Critical feat or by keen weapons.
In fact I think the 8 levels of Disciple are quite the best way with Improved Critical, Threat range * 4 is "enough" (18-20 gets 9-20, more if you take the Teamwork Benefit). A number less than 8 won't hit often anyways, so it wouldn't count as a threat. And if you score a crit in 50% of the cases, you gain a lot of attacks.

Bozwevial

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Re: optimizing criticals
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2011, 01:41:44 AM »
Not sure what you think you're getting at Soro, but the entire ability stacks with Improved Critical, yes.
And that is what I brought up. I was observing the fact Iron Power its self stacks with Improved Critical followed by a build with a superior critical range.

A 18~20 crit range is three numbers wide. 18, 19, & 20.
Exotic Weapon Master adds +2 to that for a five number total: 16~20 or 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.
Improved Critical (x2) + Iron Power (also x2 at 4th level) add together becoming an x3 multiplier.
5x3 is 15: 6~20 or 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. (my post said 5, I was off by one).

Comparatively, more Dispater focused build has a 9~20 range.
Exotic Weapon Master is a 3-level class in Complete Warrior.  I don't know what you're talking about.
It's the OA class, yep. Those calculations revised would result in a 10-20 threat range.

Archao

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Re: optimizing criticals
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2011, 03:12:13 AM »
What ever your post was meant to say, you just agreed.
Ah, sorry, I thought you were saying that the 4th level Iron Power stacked with Keen, but the eighth didn't because of the end clause. No wonder it looked so odd.

Prime32

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Re: optimizing criticals
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2011, 07:15:42 AM »
Worth noting: Psychic weapon master requires a crystal weapon, while Disciple of Dispater requires a metal one.

The Eberron Campaign Setting has the special material "crysteel", which is just what it sounds like.


EDIT: The +2 threat range from PWM is "in addition to" the bonus from Improved Critical, so it sounds like it would be applied after.

Also, you want silliness? PF has a whole category of feats which let you inflict additional penalties on the target of a critical. The Duskblade Magus class can cast free spells on them. (and fewer creatures are immune to criticals in PF besides)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 07:30:10 AM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: optimizing criticals
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2011, 03:32:24 PM »
Exotic Weapon Master is a 3-level class in Complete Warrior.  I don't know what you're talking about.
I'm sure that idiot meant Psychic Weapon Master, he was talking about it before and the names are very similar. Plus you know, it does give +2 to threat range...

You never know though, SorO's posts at times is like reading a glued together letter of murder that went though a shredder.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]