Author Topic: What do Epic Mundanes do?  (Read 10873 times)

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kalaskaagathas

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2011, 10:27:45 PM »
No. Once Epic Spellcasting is available, the mundane character needs to take on a much out of date retirement, and then thank his spellcaster friends for keeping his ass alive for so long.

What if Epic Spellcasting were banned?  What if the party were either entirely or mostly without casters and yet manage to survive (by whatever means)?  Or if duty or whatever forced them not to retire?  I may not be able to retire the character immediately (I am however planning for him to either go home and play politics or die a hero to his nation) so I may have to deal with this issue, in game, not just in theory.

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2011, 10:51:03 PM »
No. Once Epic Spellcasting is available, the mundane character needs to take on a much out of date retirement, and then thank his spellcaster friends for keeping his ass alive for so long.
BS, your opinions have been rejected repeatedly by the OP.  At this point, you're just being a prick.

To the OP: There's no epic support for ToB.  That said, with good saving throws, the Evasion and Mettle abilities, the Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection feats, and enough saving throw re-rolls you can become essentially immune to anything that allows a saving throw and all ranged attacks.  With Divine Denial you can extend that immunity to all divine magic (potentially even epic spells cast using slots granted by the Knowledge (Religion) or Knowledge (Nature) skills).  There are probably also some non-caster tricks that would allow you to combat teleportation and time stop (...Spell Stowaway?  Don't remember the source).  All that leaves are arcane spells that don't allow saving throws (and are above 6th-level, given an item of Mystic Shield).

kalaskaagathas

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2011, 10:55:26 PM »
No. Once Epic Spellcasting is available, the mundane character needs to take on a much out of date retirement, and then thank his spellcaster friends for keeping his ass alive for so long.
BS, your opinions have been rejected repeatedly by the OP.  At this point, you're just being a prick.

The funny thing is, I agree with BeholderSlayer.  It just may not be practical to retire the character the minute we hit epic (or even before).  I am hoping it doesn't come to that, but I need ideas in case it does.

Quote
To the OP: There's no epic support for ToB.  That said, with good saving throws, the Evasion and Mettle abilities, the Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection feats, and enough saving throw re-rolls you can become essentially immune to anything that allows a saving throw and all ranged attacks.  With Divine Denial you can extend that immunity to all divine magic (potentially even epic spells cast using slots granted by the Knowledge (Religion) or Knowledge (Nature) skills).  There are probably also some non-caster tricks that would allow you to combat teleportation and time stop (...Spell Stowaway?  Don't remember the source).  All that leaves are arcane spells that don't allow saving throws (and are above 6th-level, given an item of Mystic Shield).

I'll look into these things.  Where can I find the Deflection Feats and Divine Denial?

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2011, 10:58:12 PM »
Divine Denial is EoE, the others are in the SRD.

kalaskaagathas

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2011, 11:03:01 PM »
Divine Denial is EoE, the others are in the SRD.

Cool, thanks.

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2011, 12:14:30 AM »
Well, you can multiclass, I suppose.  Adding Factotum makes most guys better, if nothing else for additional actions.

Now, actually getting to epic is greatly helped by Warforged Juggernaut, since that makes you immune to tons of stuff.  Follow it up with Freedom of Movement (from armor or ring, either way) and you're immune to pretty much all of the spells you should actually worry about (including all save-or-dies and many save-or-sucks).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2011, 12:53:27 AM »
Actually, it's arguably impossible to become immune to Implosion, due to it's lack of a [Death] descriptor (which every single other SoD has).  That said, typical save-boosting tactics still apply.

kalaskaagathas

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2011, 12:54:35 AM »
Well, you can multiclass, I suppose.  Adding Factotum makes most guys better, if nothing else for additional actions.

Now, actually getting to epic is greatly helped by Warforged Juggernaut, since that makes you immune to tons of stuff.  Follow it up with Freedom of Movement (from armor or ring, either way) and you're immune to pretty much all of the spells you should actually worry about (including all save-or-dies and many save-or-sucks).

Ok, so they go for whatever immunities they can find (such as Mettle, Freedom of Movement, etc.).  Are there any mundane (well non casting) Epic PrCs that are any good?

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2011, 01:09:38 AM »
See if you can nab divine ranks somehow? :P Imhotep might be a good place to start, if your DM hasn't had him construct a flying doom fortress covered in spell turrets and magical traps.

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2011, 01:22:11 AM »
Quote
BS, your opinions have been rejected repeatedly by the OP.  At this point, you're just being a prick.
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Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2011, 03:07:28 AM »
well, aside from the obvious of epic prestige, coming up with epic progressions for your bases, and so forth... i think the divine ranks idea is a good suggestion.

though i must admit my first thought of epic mundaneness was a bureaucrat. ^^

i suppose leadership and epic leadership can help make up deficits. always helps to have friends.
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snakeman830

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2011, 11:32:50 AM »
Well, you can multiclass, I suppose.  Adding Factotum makes most guys better, if nothing else for additional actions.

Now, actually getting to epic is greatly helped by Warforged Juggernaut, since that makes you immune to tons of stuff.  Follow it up with Freedom of Movement (from armor or ring, either way) and you're immune to pretty much all of the spells you should actually worry about (including all save-or-dies and many save-or-sucks).

Ok, so they go for whatever immunities they can find (such as Mettle, Freedom of Movement, etc.).  Are there any mundane (well non casting) Epic PrCs that are any good?
Void Incarnate is the best they released (only on website).  Improved Mettle an Improved Evasion are both very nice, but it has a lot more than that (Ex Mind Blank, Freedom of Movement, immunity to Force, suppress all auras for yourself andequipment, etc.)
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Rebel7284

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2011, 12:15:27 PM »
High level mundanes do get spellcasting from items.  They just need to invest in it more.  But as an overall strategy, yeah, become immune to as many things as possible and hit for massive damage.
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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2011, 12:38:37 PM »
Actually, it's arguably impossible to become immune to Implosion, due to it's lack of a [Death] descriptor (which every single other SoD has).  That said, typical save-boosting tactics still apply.
You simply have to be not corporeal.

Cue thread drive by :D Ghosts as deemed mundane by the original poster.

Swordsage gets a maneuver to become incorporeal. Shadow Hand 8 Counter, One With Shadow. Become incorporeal for 1 round as an immediate action.
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Unbeliever

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2011, 01:02:12 PM »
I actually played an epic rogue off and on for 2 years, and he was among the most powerful characters in the party.  I never felt outclassed.  In part, incredibly high Hide checks and potent magic items helped a lot.  This also assumes somewhat reasonable house rules, like we had no epic spellcasting barring what was already statted up in the books (though you could change descriptors to fit) and we also allowed for some homebrew feats to expand various archetypes.  That was the last time I was involved in a campaign at 15+, and it was a while ago, though. 

One thing my DM did, simply b/c he wanted to, was change a lot of things that had just automatic effects, like Blindsight or Freedom of Movement into a big bonus -- e.g., FoM was a +25 or +30 to resist Grapple.  ymmv, but that's what he did.

As noted before, immunities are good.  Things w/ flat percentages, like Word Given Form or One With Shadow are also good b/c the epic numbers get ridiculous.  Since the character is mobile, avoiding full attacks is good b/c some of the epics can give a ridiculous pounding, so that's another decent tactic.  You might also try maximizing Hide and various stealth abilities -- if you're going to move away anyway, you might as well make it work for you.  

Finally, as already mentioned, the Epic Deflection feats are actually pretty good, shutting down a Gibbering Orb just by your lonesome is a pretty epic "mundane" feat.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 01:30:44 PM by Unbeliever »

kalaskaagathas

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2011, 02:29:13 PM »
Actually, it's arguably impossible to become immune to Implosion, due to it's lack of a [Death] descriptor (which every single other SoD has).  That said, typical save-boosting tactics still apply.
You simply have to be not corporeal.

Cue thread drive by :D Ghosts as deemed mundane by the original poster.

Swordsage gets a maneuver to become incorporeal. Shadow Hand 8 Counter, One With Shadow. Become incorporeal for 1 round as an immediate action.

Ok, so assuming the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis is adequate precedent for an item granting a template, how much would a Phantom Creature Template ring cost?  Or might there be some justification for a ritual granting said template?

Rebel7284

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2011, 02:34:26 PM »
That's a REALLY SCARY precedent to follow.  =)
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skydragonknight

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2011, 08:58:36 PM »
Lifedrinker (Souldrinker? The one in ELH) x 2 + Master Thrower's Weak Spot + Bloodstorm Blade's Lightning Throw + lots of attacks on a Thri-Kreen with Perfect MWF. Or Souleater + Teflammar Shadowlord + Warshaper or some way to get lots of natural attacks (prefer the safety of attacking from a distance personally).

Basically, debuff the hell out of things while also dealing damage. Even with the numbers on Epic monsters, once they have a -30 to their attack roll they ain't gonna be power attacking anything. Aptitude Boomerang Daze is always fun as well, especially as their saves continue to decrease.
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kalaskaagathas

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2011, 01:17:01 AM »
That's a REALLY SCARY precedent to follow.  =)

And yet it is still less frightening than the prospect of Epic Spells.

Lifedrinker (Souldrinker? The one in ELH) x 2 + Master Thrower's Weak Spot + Bloodstorm Blade's Lightning Throw + lots of attacks on a Thri-Kreen with Perfect MWF. Or Souleater + Teflammar Shadowlord + Warshaper or some way to get lots of natural attacks (prefer the safety of attacking from a distance personally).

Basically, debuff the hell out of things while also dealing damage. Even with the numbers on Epic monsters, once they have a -30 to their attack roll they ain't gonna be power attacking anything. Aptitude Boomerang Daze is always fun as well, especially as their saves continue to decrease.

That seems reasonable.

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Re: What do Epic Mundanes do?
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2011, 02:01:23 AM »
Level 40, Gestalt, Divine Rank 7. Holy crap. Why not just buy an old playstation and use gameshark on a final fantasy game?

Rogue 1 / Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Passive Way Monk 2 / Bard 8 / Crusader 1 / Hexblade 5 / Paladin of Tyranny 3 / Psychic Fighter 2 / Binder 8 / Warblade +9? //
Marshal 1 / Warblade 4 / Warshaper 5 / Shiba Protector 1 / Fist of the Forest 3 / Occult Slayer 5 / Crimson Scourge 8 / Iaijitsu Master 8 / Master of Nine 5

Rogue 1: Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, extra skill points.
Lion Totem Barbarian 1: Pounce.
Passive Way Monk 2: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Evasion.
Bard 8: Bardic Music (+2 base) + Dragonfire Inspiration.
Crusader 1: Allows you to take Song Of The White Raven
Hexblade 5: Arcane Resistance, Mettle, Dark Companion, Bonus Feat.
Paladin of Tyranny 3: Divine Grace, Aura of Despair.
Psychic Fighter: Eberron Psionic Crystal Augmentation (+size to unarmed strike), 2 Bonus Feats.
Binder 8: Bind Focalor for Aura of Sandness and Nabius for Ability Damage Regeneration.
//
Marshal 1: Cha to Initiative.
Warblade 4: You can take more later, right now it's just filler.
Warshaper 5: +4 to Str/Con, Fast Healing, Reach, srsly why would you NOT take it with 80 levels to spare?
Shiba Protector 1: Wisdom to Attack & Damage, hey, you can buy a +5 tome and +6 enchantment item with couch change.
Fist Of The Forest 3: Con to Ac, +2 to Unarmed Damage.
Occult Slayer 5: +3 moar to saves vs spells, nondetection, Mind Blank as a free action: off for Inspire, on when someone casts Dominate or w/e.
Crimson Scourge 8: Immunity to nonlethal damage. Couple with Regeneration for loads of fun.
Iaijitsu Master 8: Cha to Initiative (again), Strike of the Void, One Strike Two Cuts.
Master Of Nine 5: While the strike damage fades away in epics the counters remain as useful as ever.

Feat wise, take Snap Kick, Battle Jump, Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the White Raven, Power Attack, Melee X line to at least Melee Weapon Mastery(bludgeoning), the TWF line, and w/e else. Buy a +10 Valorous Fierce Martial Aptitude Blurstrike Necklace of Natural Weapons or some such. Best thought I could come up with at this time, needs more abilities though. Plus it only has Str/Dex/Int/Wis/Cha to damage, it's missing Con.

P.S. One of the Salent abilities will grant a 57% miss chance too. If you can take Alter Reality (gish?) Go. To. Town.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]