Author Topic: Help Me Build a Chessmaster (Read 14137 times)

Eviltedzies · « **Reply #20 on:** May 25, 2011, 04:26:42 PM »

I would second the Warweaver option as it allows you extreme flexibility as far as buffing and action economy is concerned. It also fits the theme of your "chessmaste" quite nicely. Imagine saying checkmate as you buff all your allies with 3 spells and then teleport them all within melee reach of the bad guy.

Benign Transportation, Regroup, Dimensional Hop, and the level 2 version of benign transportation that you can use on enemies would fit beautifully into your needs. Reorganize the battlefield at will.

kalaskaagathas · « **Reply #21 on:** May 25, 2011, 04:29:01 PM »

Quote from: Eviltedzies on May 25, 2011, 04:26:42 PM

I would second the Warweaver option as it allows you extreme flexibility as far as buffing and action economy is concerned. It also fits the theme of your "chessmaste" quite nicely. Imagine saying checkmate as you buff all your allies with 3 spells and then teleport them all within melee reach of the bad guy.

Benign Transportation, Regroup, Dimensional Hop, and the level 2 version of benign transportation that you can use on enemies would fit beautifully into your needs. Reorganize the battlefield at will.

That may make War Weaver a better choice, on the whole. I'd lose out on some caster level shenanigans, but it definitely looks more and more appropriate to the build.

I'd still like an in depth description of the Shadow Miracle via Cantrips + Residual Metamagic thing, and any other action abuses I could pull off, though.

Shiki · « **Reply #22 on:** May 25, 2011, 05:02:55 PM »

It works a bit along these lines if I'm not mistaken:

Be a Gnome Illusionist taking at least the first Gnome Illusionist Racial Substitution Level. Silent Image is now a cantrip.
Do your thing and cast any spell ever, in this case, Miracle, by Heightening + Earth Spelling your Silent Image to 10th, using one 9th level slot.
On the next round, cast the same thing but, if you have Residual Magic (Complete Mage p.46), use it to cut the slot to a cantrip level one.
Be a Focused Illusionist. Rewrite everything in existence w/ 23784682746/day Shadow Miracles.

Edit: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0 might be quite informative, if you didn't already check it up.

Tshern · « **Reply #23 on:** May 25, 2011, 05:15:53 PM »

Remember Echoing spell to recall those spell slots.

kalaskaagathas · « **Reply #24 on:** May 25, 2011, 05:21:51 PM »

Quote from: Shiki on May 25, 2011, 05:02:55 PM

It works a bit along these lines if I'm not mistaken:

Be a Gnome Illusionist taking at least the first Gnome Illusionist Racial Substitution Level. Silent Image is now a cantrip.
Do your thing and cast any spell ever, in this case, Miracle, by Heightening + Earth Spelling your Silent Image to 10th, using one 9th level slot.
On the next round, cast the same thing but, if you have Residual Magic (Complete Mage p.46), use it to cut the slot to a cantrip level one.
Be a Focused Illusionist. Rewrite everything in existence w/ 23784682746/day Shadow Miracles.

Hmmm, that's pretty crazy. I don't think I'll be able to be a Gnome, but it sounds like this would work with Silent Image as a 1st level spell instead of a cantrip anyway. And I don't think I want to open that up to the DM (he plays "If you (the players) can do something, so can I (with my NPCs)") but it's a useful little trick. Maybe I'll use it in dire situations, but with a higher level slot, depending on what the DM thinks of it.

Quote

Edit: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0 might be quite informative, if you didn't already check it up.

I've read it a few times before, but I'll check it out again.

Quote from: Tshern on May 25, 2011, 05:15:53 PM

Remember Echoing spell to recall those spell slots.

That's why I want to get a crazy CL - I'll be able to Echoing Spell all day long.

KellKheraptis · « **Reply #25 on:** May 25, 2011, 05:26:22 PM »

Actually, if you can get Metaphysical Spellshaper allowed, you can get cantrip miracles from the original slot. Between the -1 there, the -1 from Incantatrix, the two slot bonus from Earth Spell, the -1 from Arcane Thesis, and the -2 from Halruuan Elder, all you need are like two more reductions. Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, and one other gets you to 10th level spells from a 0th level slot, which can be done via Sanctum Spell. Congrats, you're now casting cantrip shadow miracles! Also, check my thread in the You Break It forum about stealing the erudite's thunder...it shows how to abuse the action economy with psionics using a wizard base.

ILM · « **Reply #26 on:** May 25, 2011, 05:35:51 PM »

Note that as was pointed out to me, you'd need a lenient DM to throw Shadow Miracles, as ScM3 only allows you to emulate spells from the Sorc/Wiz list, and not your spell list.

edit: and as I wrote in the handbook thread, I'm pretty sure the Signature Spell / Spell Mastery thing for spontaneous Silent Images heightened to taste doesn't work either.

Shiki · « **Reply #27 on:** May 25, 2011, 05:38:28 PM »

Quote from: ILM on May 25, 2011, 05:35:51 PM

Note that as was pointed out to me, you'd need a lenient DM to throw Shadow Miracles, as ScM3 only allows you to emulate spells from the Sorc/Wiz list, and not your spell list.

That's what Arcane Disciple is all about; getting it on your list.

kalaskaagathas · « **Reply #28 on:** May 25, 2011, 05:53:24 PM »

Quote from: KellKheraptis on May 25, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Actually, if you can get Metaphysical Spellshaper allowed, you can get cantrip miracles from the original slot. Between the -1 there, the -1 from Incantatrix, the two slot bonus from Earth Spell, the -1 from Arcane Thesis, and the -2 from Halruuan Elder, all you need are like two more reductions. Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, and one other gets you to 10th level spells from a 0th level slot, which can be done via Sanctum Spell. Congrats, you're now casting cantrip shadow miracles! Also, check my thread in the You Break It forum about stealing the erudite's thunder...it shows how to abuse the action economy with psionics using a wizard base.

I doubt we can use material from BoEF but I'll check. I'm not sure I need to be casting Miracles from every slot I've got, but it'd be nice to be able to do it, just in case, even if I don't actually use the trick. I'm afraid it'll turn me into a bit of a one-trick pony though, which is not what I'm going for.

I'll check out the Stealing the Erudite's Thunder thread, but I doubt I'll be able to use psionics even with a Wizard base. The DM is pretty Psionics averse, but I can live with that - he runs a great campaign.

Quote from: ILM on May 25, 2011, 05:35:51 PM

Note that as was pointed out to me, you'd need a lenient DM to throw Shadow Miracles, as ScM3 only allows you to emulate spells from the Sorc/Wiz list, and not your spell list.

edit: and as I wrote in the handbook thread, I'm pretty sure the Signature Spell / Spell Mastery thing for spontaneous Silent Images heightened to taste doesn't work either.

I think he's willing to allow such things, even though they're questionably RAW.

Edit: I'm reading the War Weaver Handbook and I'm starting to wonder what sort of tricks I can pull off with this build. I agree with that handbook's author, my primary duties are going to be ending enemy spellcasters/other high value targets and buffing my allies to insane degrees, but after that, what would I do? I was thinking I might be able to gish it up with Persisted Divine Power and Battle Jump + Leap Attack + Power Attack + maybe Shock Trooper, if I need to conserve spells (which is likely a non-issue). I'd also like to find some way to deal with AMFs. I might be able to swing Cleric 3 + Initiate of Mystra, but I'm not sure. What other ways are there of dealing with an AMF (beyond the Lead Party Hat, of course)?

Any suggestions for a build/feat distribution/other ideas?

KellKheraptis · « **Reply #29 on:** May 25, 2011, 07:10:45 PM »

Contingent Celerity comes to mind, as does of course CoP. Perhaps Persistent Invoke Magic at high levels, and keep something around invisibly nearby conveniently out of the 10' possible radius to use Benign Transposition on as an immediate action? First things off the top of my head

Kinda distracted, we're in central IL and tracking some severe shit right now.

kalaskaagathas · « **Reply #30 on:** May 25, 2011, 08:10:33 PM »

Quote from: KellKheraptis on May 25, 2011, 07:10:45 PM

Contingent Celerity comes to mind, as does of course CoP. Perhaps Persistent Invoke Magic at high levels, and keep something around invisibly nearby conveniently out of the 10' possible radius to use Benign Transposition on as an immediate action? First things off the top of my head Kinda distracted, we're in central IL and tracking some severe shit right now.

What is CoP? Would Craft Contingency for a Contingent Invoke Magic be a more useful and less resource hogging method (since I'll be able to get other contingencies from it, and it won't eat up a spell slot and metamagic each day)?

Good luck with the weather there, Kell.

Tshern · « **Reply #31 on:** May 25, 2011, 08:18:56 PM »

Contact Other Plane. AMF shuts the contingency down.

kalaskaagathas · « **Reply #32 on:** May 25, 2011, 08:22:38 PM »

Quote from: Tshern on May 25, 2011, 08:18:56 PM

Contact Other Plane. AMF shuts the contingency down.

Hmmm, that won't do. And I can see that it would be valuable to have a contingent CoP, just not the situation it would be contingent upon.

Additionally, where can I find the Twice Betrayer and other classic CharOp builds? I think there may be wisdom in perusing the state of the prior art before building something like this.

Lycanthromancer · « **Reply #33 on:** May 25, 2011, 08:22:51 PM »

If changelings and some Eberron stuff is doable, there's always the changeling double-focused-specialist (transmutation/illusion)/war weaver/shadowcraft mage/incantatrix.

Use Racial Emulation (Gnome) for shadowcraft mage, of course.

Once you hit epic levels, start going legacy champion to advance war weaver.

KellKheraptis · « **Reply #34 on:** May 25, 2011, 08:32:29 PM »

Meh, don't even need to emulate a gnome. The adaptation removes the racial requirement, and seeing a cabal of changling SCMs fits perfectly, not to mention makes me smile

kalaskaagathas · « **Reply #35 on:** May 25, 2011, 08:43:17 PM »

I'm pretty sure ScM is going to be adapted to non-gnome entry - I'm not even sure there are gnomes in this setting. I'd definitely go for the Changeling sub levels, if I am allowed Changeling and if I can figure out what schools to ban. Evocation, obviously, is the first, that's what I'd ban as a Diviner. After that I might ban Enchantment (since I'll likely have social skills), but then I'd have to ban Necromancy or Conjuration, wouldn't I? I can't ban Abjuration because of Incantatrix, which means it'd probably be optimal to ban Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy (or would Conjuration be better, since I can emulate a large number of them with ScM?) which means I wouldn't get some nice things - would that be worth it, on this sort of build?

Lycanthromancer · « **Reply #36 on:** May 25, 2011, 08:48:14 PM »

Part of the thing about being a changeling double-specialist/focused specialist is that you must be an illusion/transmutation specialist. And since you're double-specializing you get twice the spell slots as a focused specialist. Which is really nice.

Also, transmutation is awesome for buffing and changing the battlefield (as is illusion), so it's perfect for your desired play-style (especially with shadowcraft mage and war weaver).

You'd have to ban a number of schools, though. Definitely not divination, transmutation, illusion, or abjuration, though. Everything else could (potentially) go, since you've also got access to Shadow Conjuration. It's not perfect, but it's doable.

kalaskaagathas · « **Reply #37 on:** May 25, 2011, 08:53:26 PM »

Quote from: Lycanthromancer on May 25, 2011, 08:48:14 PM

Part of the thing about being a changeling double-specialist/focused specialist is that you must be an illusion/transmutation specialist. And since you're double-specializing you get twice the spell slots as a focused specialist. Which is really nice.

Also, transmutation is awesome for buffing and changing the battlefield (as is illusion), so it's perfect for your desired play-style (especially with shadowcraft mage and war weaver).

You'd have to ban a number of schools, though. Definitely not divination, transmutation, illusion, or abjuration, though. Everything else could (potentially) go, since you've also got access to Shadow Conjuration. It's not perfect, but it's doable.

Where can I find Focused Specialist? Do you really think I could drop Conjuration? I was planning on using teleportation effects to move my allies around the battle, and aren't they Conjuration spells? It'd be easier if I could just emulate all of Conjuration like I can Evocation.

Edit: Ok, so if I go Focused Specialist, I'd have to drop one school of magic, which can't be Divination, Transmutation, Illusion, or Abjuration. For the Changeling dual spec, I'd have to drop three schools of magic, which can't be Divination, Transmutation, Illusion, or Abjuration. For Incantatrix, I effectively have to ban one school of magic, which can't be any of the above. That's five banned schools, out of eight schools total - I don't think there's a legal way for a Changeling Dual Specced Focused Specced Incantatrix to exist.

Lycanthromancer · « **Reply #38 on:** May 25, 2011, 09:31:26 PM »

Focused specialist is from C.Mage.

Double specialist is from RoE.

And as far as teleportation effects...maybe you can find other ways to pull them in? Shadow Conjuration for summoned creatures that can do it for you maybe?

kalaskaagathas · « **Reply #39 on:** May 25, 2011, 09:48:53 PM »

I don't know that summoned creatures can cast into my eldritch tapestry. I'm still not sure there's a legal Double Specced Focused Spec 'Trix. Otherwise I'd probably go for it, though losing Conjuration would hurt. I guess you could drop Illusion or Transmutation for Incantatrix, now that I think about it, though it'd be strange to spec in a school and then effectively ban it. Are there any ways of getting around banned schools?

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Author Topic: Help Me Build a Chessmaster (Read 14137 times)