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Prime32

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2011, 10:04:56 AM »
New recommendation: Define the differences between TO and CO.
Point out that the people who come up with TO builds never use use them in games, and the people who seek them out to annoy their DMs would be annoying anyway. (without them they'd just "forget" to record damage, etc. instead)

And I thought the latter would be PO?


Also needs an explanation of munchkin, optimiser and min-maxer. For that matter, a rules lawyer is not automatically someone trying to give himself an advantage - I remember some "player alignment" thread where that was given as LE.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 10:16:01 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2011, 11:33:44 AM »
New recommendation: Define the differences between TO and CO.
Point out that the people who come up with TO builds never use use them in games, and the people who seek them out to annoy their DMs would be annoying anyway. (without them they'd just "forget" to record damage, etc. instead)

And I thought the latter would be PO?


Also needs an explanation of munchkin, optimiser and min-maxer. For that matter, a rules lawyer is not automatically someone trying to give himself an advantage - I remember some "player alignment" thread where that was given as LE.
You two assholes just had to take away the one thing I could think of contributing at the moment. :shakefist

More seriously. Yeah, that needs to be made clear. And hell, there's not just the two subsets, there's a whole gradient of them, and their position might even change with the group. The late Fall of Pun-Pun and Death of an Artist games on this very site allowed a lot of questionable cheese that would make some nerdrage about optimizers not giving a fuck about RAI or RAW, while the IRC game I currently play under veekie is quite more subdued, but still well above the power level expected by designers.

In any case, it needs to be made clear that when one optimizer speaks, he's not speaking for all optimizers. For a while, I've seen people who simply prefer lower power turn into aggressive "CO=munchkin" stereotypes when confronted with liberal/literal readings or extrapolations that resulted in high-powered builds or strategies. It's like Sunic touched them in a bad place, and it needs to be fixed. Somehow.
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Prime32

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2011, 11:50:56 AM »
Something on item dependence, and how it's greater among lower tiers since items can be used to duplicate some of the abilities of higher-tier classes. Note that the game is balanced around standard WBL, and "low-magic" games just make spellcasters stronger since they now have a monopoly on vital abilities like flight. And of course, "VoP = trap", pointing out that you could buy items that replicate its effects and have money left over. Similarly, a soulknife's weapon is actually weaker than what his allies can buy.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 11:56:57 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2011, 01:57:49 PM »
New recommendation: Define the differences between TO and CO.
Definitely, theres a whole sliding scale.
Like so
[spoiler]
Theoretical Optimization

Using CO to completely break the game in ways that will render it unplayable. i.e Pun Pun, infinite loops.

Using CO to make the game difficult to play by most DMs(Divination abuse for the most part, but to a lesser degree Scry and Die, along with chain contingencies), bye bye regular plots

Using CO to push the limits of play by using combinations of features that probably aren't intended by anyone sane(Breaking the wealth system by crafting, all out ubercharging(the versions that will kill anything up to 4 CR above if it can connect), Rope Trick resting, Persistent Divine Power, Shadowcraft Mage), you know, stuff that pushes the envelope really hard but don't smash anything. When a CO DM says high optimization, and mean it.

Using CO to extend the limits of character capability(Pearl of Powered GMW and MV to replace expensive equipment enhancements, moderate ubercharging, cost negation for otherwise safe abilities(like negating the ability damage cost for various abilities), optimized Inspire Courage, GOD wizardry and basic CoDzilla.) This can stress your DM if he believes the given CRs on monsters but otherwise isn't that bad. Favored CO point of most 'moderate optimisation' games hosted by optimisers themselves, but 'high optimization' for those who're inexperienced.

Using CO to make your character effective in their chosen field. Using a BFS on a fighty type, Wild Shape on a druid(:P), TWF on a bonus damage dice type, taking the right feats to bolster your combat style instead of Skill Focus(Basketmaking) etc. This is acceptable even to non CO enlightened types, you just do your job and do it well. Basic optimisation to those in the know, moderate optimisation to those not.

Merely picking a class/race/stat combo that doesn't screw itself, but lax on anything else. Casual really, but this is the minimum for most people that aren't trying to be special unique snowflakes. Monks an exception, most of them land here or lower anyway. This is where the designers thought people played at, in Core.

Picking something basically at random. Sometimes possible from rolled stats alone, or making a character that might fit in a world but is decidedly never going to survive adventuring for long. Maybe reference kevin_video's old DM. :P

Anti Optimization.
[/spoiler]
Probably should add a section on common banned material types by DMs and how to work around the lack. ToB, the variant magic systems, psionics are big ones. But basically just list out what you are missing out on and how you can compensate.
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Please get it a blanket.

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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
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[/spoiler]

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veekie

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2011, 02:05:43 PM »
Oh and advice on how to reduce dumpster diving for players with optimization allergic DMs, the fewer and more mainstream the sources, the more likely to find acceptance. The less 'fluff is mutable' the better for such DM types. CO veterans won't find much of an issue working around those DM types, but newbies need a hand as to how to limit sources and go to Plan B without sucking.

Theres a lot of rage-advice about "going CoDzilla" on optimization adverse DMs who reduced the ruleset to 'core only' but that really only serves to make things worse. Aim just below instead, and go under the radar, being effective but not shitty.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Agita

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2011, 04:41:11 PM »
New recommendation: Define the differences between TO and CO.
Definitely, theres a whole sliding scale.
Like so
[spoiler]
Theoretical Optimization

Using CO to completely break the game in ways that will render it unplayable. i.e Pun Pun, infinite loops.

Using CO to make the game difficult to play by most DMs(Divination abuse for the most part, but to a lesser degree Scry and Die, along with chain contingencies), bye bye regular plots

Using CO to push the limits of play by using combinations of features that probably aren't intended by anyone sane(Breaking the wealth system by crafting, all out ubercharging(the versions that will kill anything up to 4 CR above if it can connect), Rope Trick resting, Persistent Divine Power, Shadowcraft Mage), you know, stuff that pushes the envelope really hard but don't smash anything. When a CO DM says high optimization, and mean it.

Using CO to extend the limits of character capability(Pearl of Powered GMW and MV to replace expensive equipment enhancements, moderate ubercharging, cost negation for otherwise safe abilities(like negating the ability damage cost for various abilities), optimized Inspire Courage, GOD wizardry and basic CoDzilla.) This can stress your DM if he believes the given CRs on monsters but otherwise isn't that bad. Favored CO point of most 'moderate optimisation' games hosted by optimisers themselves, but 'high optimization' for those who're inexperienced.

Using CO to make your character effective in their chosen field. Using a BFS on a fighty type, Wild Shape on a druid(:P), TWF on a bonus damage dice type, taking the right feats to bolster your combat style instead of Skill Focus(Basketmaking) etc. This is acceptable even to non CO enlightened types, you just do your job and do it well. Basic optimisation to those in the know, moderate optimisation to those not.

Merely picking a class/race/stat combo that doesn't screw itself, but lax on anything else. Casual really, but this is the minimum for most people that aren't trying to be special unique snowflakes. Monks an exception, most of them land here or lower anyway. This is where the designers thought people played at, in Core.

Picking something basically at random. Sometimes possible from rolled stats alone, or making a character that might fit in a world but is decidedly never going to survive adventuring for long. Maybe reference kevin_video's old DM. :P

Anti Optimization.
[/spoiler]
Probably should add a section on common banned material types by DMs and how to work around the lack. ToB, the variant magic systems, psionics are big ones. But basically just list out what you are missing out on and how you can compensate.
Reading over this, it's mostly from the DM's perspective, though. While it's a good thing to keep in mind (a DM who's not out of his league runs a better game than one who is, so you don't want to overtax yours), I think this guide is aimed at players first, DMs second (naturally, it helps DMs too - after all, you need to know the stuff yourself to be able to cope with "higher" CO tiers in your game).
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 05:33:35 PM by Agita »
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Tshern

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2011, 04:49:20 PM »
Agita nailed it there. It is more for the players rather than the DMs. Despite that those suggestions were a welcomed addition. Perhaps there will be a second volume dealing with DMs?

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2011, 05:34:58 PM »
Speaking of "CO tiers", wasn't there a post with such tiers or levels once? I know I've seen it multiple times, but it never caught on the way class tiers did.
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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2011, 05:59:28 PM »
Agita nailed it there. It is more for the players rather than the DMs. Despite that those suggestions were a welcomed addition. Perhaps there will be a second volume dealing with DMs?
I don't know, I find such things really useful as a player.  I have a rough rangefinder in my head of how good is "good" relative to a campaign and the other players/characters in the party.  So, I know how much I need to optimize.  I cut the the world up differently than the OP does -- I put more effort into optimizing classes/concepts that need it and less into those that don't -- but the end result is to try and make a Soulknife, Fighter, or [insert traditionally considered crappy class/archetype here] keep up w/ and contribute w/ a party alongside a Wizard, Druid, etc.

So, a sense of where you should be, at a given level, perhaps w/ a couple of different variations for campaign difficulty or aggregate level of optimization could be helpful. 

I also think definitions of terms like Rocket Tag, as mentioned above, would be really helpful, along w/ perhaps exemplars of those tactics.  TreantMonk kind of did that for the God Wizard, and I think Endrarie's Hood handbook does it for that particular build type, but right now you can only learn it by seeing them in play. 

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2011, 06:08:35 PM »
So basically also a list of different things you should have or be able to fight against at any given level should be included? Or at least a rough guideline, since there is no real consensus about most of those things.

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kalaskaagathas

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2011, 06:11:32 PM »
So basically also a list of different things you should have or be able to fight against at any given level should be included? Or at least a rough guideline, since there is no real consensus about most of those things.

Another list that might be useful would be a level by level guide to what abilities are online.  I mean like Flight or Invisibility or Teleportation and such.

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2011, 07:02:41 PM »
Yeah, but the player can adapt to the DM as well, the same progression list works as well for a player who discovered the wonders of the Handbook subforum and is concerned about not scaring the crap out of his DM is useful.

Of course, getting crap past the radar is itself a fine art.
DMs ban or disfavor certain things frequently, especially ignorant or worse, just aware enough to be troublesome sorts. By minimizing use of offending material, negative backlash can be avoided while still bringing competent characters to the table.

Unfamiliar systems - Psionics, Marital Initiators, Incarnum, Binding, Vow of Poverty, Truenaming, Shadowcasting and Warlocks, along with Homebrew anything. These generate confusion, especially those with abilities hidden in the option(like any alternate casting abilities), if the DM doesn't know these systems, they are likely to get negative reactions.

Unlimited <anything> - Anything unlimited is rated significantly higher(hence all the talk of warlocks being overpowered and the crusader's healing strikes being problematic) than it actually is. Anything unlimited not clearly built in and wholly intended is worse, running a recharge build sets alarm bells ringing. The converse applies, anything limited in use is perceived as weaker than it is, especially if its as limited as 1-2 times.

Campaign specific - Forget 'fluff is mutable', first impressions rule, and less open minded DMs will anchor a specific set of fluff to a specific set of abilities. Any campaign specific material except the current  setting is suspect. Doubly so for settings like Forgotten Realms with significant baggage.

Source Obscurity - Mainly dragon magazine and web enhancements here, but less central books apply(the environments, the monster type books, etc) as well. The less the DM himself uses said source, the more suspect it will tend to be. SRD stuff is usually a safe bet, and few limit it further than Core + Completes + Compendiums generally. More specific materials might require more open DMs.

Source Usage - Its an instinct. The more sources, the more apparent complexity. Something using a different book for each feat and spell is more likely to raise hackles than something using two books. DMs recoil for reasonable(it being a pain in the butt to do referencing) and unreasonable(its obviously more powerful if you use a hundred sources) reasons, but they DO recoil.

Build Complexity - The more classes or the more elaborate the hoops you're going through, the less likely that you see the exact same build show up in generic fantasy, the greater the build complexity. Some may even reject Prestige classes for that reason. Maintaining low build complexity reduces the perception of power. Druid 20 is seen as more balanced than a fighter with four prestige classes dips.

Play complexity - Don't take an option if it's going to take you more than 10 minutes flipping around to work out what you're going to do. This is more a mercy to the player, know how good you are and work with that. Remember the DM has to track a hell of a lot, and every additional thing he tracks is extra work.
Don't build something that requires half an hour of math for one round of attack.

So basically also a list of different things you should have or be able to fight against at any given level should be included? Or at least a rough guideline, since there is no real consensus about most of those things.
Guidelines(mainly average modifier for a creature that actually uses that attack form and defenses) and iconic examples of things you meet at any given level are good ideas to know if you're on or below par for sure.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2011, 07:19:13 PM »
Speaking of "CO tiers", wasn't there a post with such tiers or levels once? I know I've seen it multiple times, but it never caught on the way class tiers did.
I remember it too, and I make reference to it every now and again. Off-hand:

Tier 0: Stuff like Pun-Pun, Shadow Miracles, Planar Shepherd, Twice Betrayer. (Basically, stuff your DM would have to be INSANE to allow).
Tier 1: High-powered Rocket Tag. Things like GOD Wizards, DMM Clerics, Spell-to-Power Erudite, AKA the Pinnacle of Practical Optimization. You can expect the Wish Economy at this level of optimization.
Tier 2: Less-almighty builds, such as Chargers, Gish builds, or Dragonfire Bards. Still efficient, but more manageable for the DM.
Tier 3: People who play Soulknives, but actually have the common sense to ask an optimizer for help with it. In other words, lower-powered class optimization.
Tier 4: Anyone who doesn't actively optimize. Blaster Wizards who use Core only, etc.
Tier 5: Anyone who actively un-optimizes, be it as a joke or because of sad delusions. In other words, this Tier only exists if people are actually trying to make their character as weak as humanly possible.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2011, 08:08:52 PM »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2011, 09:00:17 PM »


[spoiler][/spoiler]

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2011, 11:10:38 PM »
I endorse this, but I've mostly just learned my optimization from reading these (and earlier the wotc) boards.

I still have a problem explaining why Monk is bad to people, and why Warblade is perfectly fine, and how Sorcerors are broken outside of TO.
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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2011, 11:34:07 PM »
Pressing this matter seems rather pushy, but I will do it anyway. Are there any volunteers, who would contribute to this project in a more formal manner? I am willing to write and compile everything, but assuming a subforum will be created, I would be most grateful if some people would jump in and help me with the project. Well, to be honest, I will not start working until I know I am not the only one working on this.

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2011, 11:38:48 PM »
Pressing this matter seems rather pushy, but I will do it anyway. Are there any volunteers, who would contribute to this project in a more formal manner? I am willing to write and compile everything, but assuming a subforum will be created, I would be most grateful if some people would jump in and help me with the project. Well, to be honest, I will not start working until I know I am not the only one working on this.

I can do some write-ups, like for the Action Economy part, and I can compile the Class Handbooks in a day or so.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

kalaskaagathas

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2011, 11:40:49 PM »
Pressing this matter seems rather pushy, but I will do it anyway. Are there any volunteers, who would contribute to this project in a more formal manner? I am willing to write and compile everything, but assuming a subforum will be created, I would be most grateful if some people would jump in and help me with the project. Well, to be honest, I will not start working until I know I am not the only one working on this.

I will help in whatever way I can, but as a relative newbie around here, my abilities are limited.

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Re: Possible Newcomer Handbook Project
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2011, 12:08:08 AM »
I think we also need to expose some of the traps newbies fall into. Some examples being monk unarmed damage, why direct damage spells are generally inferior, and why certain feats like great cleave and whirlwind attack just aren't worth it in spite of how cool they sound.