Possible Newcomer Handbook Project

[Tshern]

Hello all,

A few moments ago I threw out an idea regarding a project that would briefly guide new optimizers through the basic tenets of optimization in 3.5e. Naturally this idea hasn't even got an informal framework yet, but I was thinking something like explaining what are good practices in optimization (classes, tactics and whatnot), point readers towards correct sources (where to find a prestige class for a Cleric, for example) and whatnot. The work itself would naturally require a lot of linking and referencing of existing handbooks and as such it would be a more approachable version of the Hand Links franchise with a more guide-through attitude.

So, to get down to the questions:
1. Would there be use for such a creation?
2. How should it be done? A separate subforum, a stickied thread and a regular handbook are but a few options that come easily to mind.
3. Volunteers?

That is all for now.

[kalaskaagathas]

1.  There would most certainly be a use for such a creation.  I would have loved to have such a thing when I was brand new to Min/Max, and would frankly still like such a thing.
2.  I could see a separate subforum or a stickied thread in the handbooks section.
3.  I'll help in any way I can.  My skills at CharOp are limited, but having gone through the process of learning optimization relatively recently I think I might be able to provide a useful perspective on the matter.

[Prime32]

I'd say "yes", "stickied handbook", and "what do you need?".

[Kajhera]

I would suggest a handbook, stickied or otherwise. That's one forum I've never felt odd about digging through, and it seems like it would fit well with your intended goal. Just make sure to link to it in your Handy Links thread.

[Sinfire Titan]

I'd say "stickied handbook".

[Tshern]

Just FYI, superb optimization knowledge is not required for this project, at least not for the most part. The project requires only rudimentary skills and slightly above basic understanding of optimization, since it is aimed for newcomers. For a more in depth perspective people can always start new threads and read more specific handbooks concerning their issues and interests.

[Prime32]

The tier system needs referencing, at any rate. Also, the "commandments". But those shouldn't come first.

Include some stuff on the difference between class and job - very few "monk" concepts actually want the specific abilities the monk class provides. Doing it just so you can call yourself a monk doesn't make sense, since no sane person would call themselves or their friends a barbarian. And, of course, you cannot RP a peerless swordsman if your build is so bad that every other swordsman kicks your ass. Some mention of Stormwind there too.

Multiclassing is not an evil, and the flexibility it offers is in fact one of 3.x's greatest strengths. A rogue/fighter is not a stitched-together abomination, he's Zorro.


Some specific examples I like to give:

• Lancelot is a knight known for defying his king's orders and for going into wild rages when fighting. The knight class is practically his antithesis, and the paladin class doesn't work either. The barbarian class, on the other hand, fits his abilities well.
• Gandalf is a servant of a deity whose powers are most effective against evil creatures. He is skilled with a sword, his mere presence makes people feel more courageous, and he can call a mystical horse to his side. He displays only minor magical abilities, most of which come from a magic ring related to fire. A D&D wizard is nothing like Gandalf, but the paladin class is a perfect fit.

On comparing monks and spellcasters... Mention how many class features the monk gets. Then point to the sorcerer's spells known, and that a sorcerer with pre-chosen spells as class features would have more than a monk. Then point out that a monk's capstone Slow Fall is weaker than an ability a wizard can get at 3rd level, and his other abilities follow suit. Then point out that a wizard has dozens of class features per level...

[Lycanthromancer]

There should also be a point in there about how multiclassing affects casters vs noncasters, and how it often powers up the weak ones while watering down the strongest classes (though PrCs break this mold, obviously).

[kalaskaagathas]

In addition to what is mentioned above, the different games played within the umbrella of D&D 3.5 must be made clear.  Simply saying that Wizards get to play Rocket Tag while Fighters are stuck hitting things with their swords doesn't quite cut it.  I didn't get what was meant by "Rocket Tag" until I started playing by Treantmonk's guide, and then I realized that casting Color Spray and ending encounters with a standard action was much, much more powerful than being able to deal 1d12+6 damage, or 1d4+1d6 damage, or whatever.  Once I realized I was basically playing chess, while the rest of my companions were playing chess pieces I understood what Rocket Tag was.

Another thing which ought to be stressed is the value of reading.  Having access to multiple splats can make a typically underpowered class into a powerhouse (viz. the Bard) and having a functional knowledge of the various class features, feats, skill tricks, etc. can really empower a build.

I'd like to further support the notion that multiclassing (and PrCs) isn't an evil, and often can allow a concept to be made mechanically viable.

[Tshern]

The multiclassing and mutability of flavour arguments will definitely be present, no question about that. My idea was all the 'chapters' or whatever they will be called would contain multiple links in case someone wants deeper knowledge and more examples, but the thread itself would be kept approachable as hell. While the thread will probably be a wall of text, I think sending people to the right direction when they feel ready to take a few more steps towards optimization-fu will be a useful addition.

[altpersona]

i approve of this project, carry on.

[Tshern]

Random note: The people endorsing this are actually the least likely readers of said project. Funny.

[b100d_arrowz]

I would love to see a handbook like this, I'd offer forth any contribution that would be worthy, and then I'd make it mandatory reading for my players who still think monk's are awesome because of their class features 

[Endarire]

Are we assuming this handbook is for people who want to learn 3.5?  I've had plenty of groupmates who didn't care for learning anything deep.

I suggest Seven Facets of Character Optimization as a link at least.

[Tshern]

If they are unwilling to learn they are unlikely to be browsing such threads in the first place. That's something we can't really control, so I am working under the assumption that the people actually give a shit about what they read.

[Endarire]

Here's something I wish I would've known as a newbie player.

A DM's maturity (not necessarily how long he's been playing or DMing) matters a lot when it comes to his rulings.  Too many DMs have allowed something only to give an effective "no" when I try to use something as written.  Often, these "no" moments are for Illusions, mind control effects, teleportation effects, and anything that makes one side win far too easily.

A mature DM can stand being outwitted by his players.  An immature one can't.

[Sinfire Titan]

Random note: The people endorsing this are actually the least likely readers of said project. Funny.

Some of us will read and comment, in an attempt to further the project. Others are just agreeing because they want a handy link that they can show to newbs and idiots alike.

Basically what you want is an overview of what the handbook should be composed of, right? Here's a few suggestions:

• An explanation of character resources (XP, GP, Class Levels, Feats, Ability Scores, Skill Points, Racial choice), and their importance. This explanation should cover how valuable each of these resources are to character creation, and how best to manage them.
• The Commandments of Optimization, modified to meet current standards (not much has changed, but there are a few things that need to be elaborated upon).
• The Class Tiers, possibly even PrC Tiers.
• A reprint of the Stormwind & Oberoni Fallacies.
• An explanation of the Action Economy.
• Links to Handbooks for the individual classes (exclude handbooks that exist solely to explain a concept, such as my Band Aids For Dummies Handbook), and a link to the most recent iteration of the Class Tiers (to conserve space). If possible, list the Handbooks in order of Class Tier (we're gonna need more handbooks)
• Links to Handbooks defining concepts or tricks (Dirty Tricks Handbook, Trapmaking handbook, etc).

Whoever does write this handbook out needs to be as objective as possible.

[Tshern]

Random note: The people endorsing this are actually the least likely readers of said project. Funny.

Some of us will read and comment, in an attempt to further the project. Others are just agreeing because they want a handy link that they can show to newbs and idiots alike.

It was meant to be a joke of sorts. Perhaps a newbie or two will give their thumbs up as well.

Basically what you want is an overview of what the handbook should be composed of, right?

Something like that, definitely.

An explanation of character resources (XP, GP, Class Levels, Feats, Ability Scores, Skill Points, Racial choice), and their importance. This explanation should cover how valuable each of these resources are to character creation, and how best to manage them.

Agreed. Probably with references to different classes how the relative values of those attributes vary. Of course an introduction to MAD and SAD and so forth are par for the course as well.

The Commandments of Optimization, modified to meet current standards (not much has changed, but there are a few things that need to be elaborated upon).

Agreed.

The Class Tiers, possibly even PrC Tiers.

Yes, possibly with a brief explanation about the major debates about the tiers.

A reprint of the Stormwind & Oberoni Fallacies.

This I didn't even think of. Cheers.

An explanation of the Action Economy.

Another great idea.

Links to Handbooks for the individual classes (exclude handbooks that exist solely to explain a concept, such as my Band Aids For Dummies Handbook), and a link to the most recent iteration of the Class Tiers (to conserve space). If possible, list the Handbooks in order of Class Tier (we're gonna need more handbooks)

Already, partially at least, covered by Handy Links, but I guess that makes it a lot easier to link them (copy+paste). The format is naturally still a mystery and it might be prudent to see how the handbook works out before making any big decisions about it.

Links to Handbooks defining concepts or tricks (Dirty Tricks Handbook, Trapmaking handbook, etc).

Perhaps towards the end of the handbook.

Whoever does write this handbook out needs to be as objective as possible.

Agreed. I can take care of the writing/compiling as long as I have willing people to toss material towards me. A subforum is a possibility if a number of regulars are willing to contribute. Makes brainstorming easier as every topic could be written and discussed in a dedicated thread and then moved to the finalised version of the handbook.

Thanks for the feedback and ideas.

[nijineko]

i would not only read such a handbook, i'd save it offline and share it too. =D

[Sinfire Titan]

New recommendation: Define the differences between TO and CO.