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Nameless Void

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Powers for an Erudite
« on: May 23, 2011, 09:12:48 AM »
Hi guys, looking for ideas for the following character build. I need to know what powers I should know/learn to make this guy an effective melee combatant.

Monk 1/Ardent 1/Erudite 4/Metamind 2

Feats: Overchannel, Talented, Caramendine Monk, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monastic Training, Tashalatora and Linked Power.

Erudite Mantels: Creation (for Astral Construct) and Magic (for treating magic/psi identical)

What powers should this guy know? So far I'm thinking Inertial Armor, Vigor, Expansion but really don't know psionics very well.

Thanks for all ideas in advance!
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Risada

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2011, 09:38:41 AM »
Hi guys, looking for ideas for the following character build. I need to know what powers I should know/learn to make this guy an effective melee combatant.

Monk 1/Ardent 1/Erudite 4/Metamind 2

Feats: Overchannel, Talented, Caramendine Monk, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monastic Training, Tashalatora and Linked Power.

Erudite Mantels: Creation (for Astral Construct) and Magic (for treating magic/psi identical)

What powers should this guy know? So far I'm thinking Inertial Armor, Vigor, Expansion but really don't know psionics very well.

Thanks for all ideas in advance!

If you're planning on picking vigor, I recommend picking Share Pain when possible, and use it on your psicrystal (the erudite gets one, right?)

Other good powers include Hustle and Physical Acceleration...


Rejakor

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2011, 02:55:38 PM »
Oh, my speciality.  Monk based psionic gishes.

First of all, what kind of power level are you looking for?  If you're familiar with the tier system, that will do, or a short description of the party you're in.  This is so I know if you want be running around and punching things for double greatsword damage, or if you want to be on fire with holy light shining out of your eyes punching things into orbit while screaming.

Secondly, what does your DM think the granted power of the Magic Mantle does?  Does it let your ML = CL and your powers = spells?  Because that changes your ballgame slightly in terms of what you can do and how easily.


Without even taking that into account.  You are a Spell To Power Erudite.  No questions asked.  I'm tempted to tell you to burn your bonus psycrystal feat as well, and be a Mantled Erudite on top of that.  There is no debating that 3pp cheaper Astral Constructs are sexy, and you're already feat-starved.  But delaying your erudite casting progression by even one level is heinously painful.  I guess if you're going to spend combat turns creating astral constructs and entangling ectoplasm and ectoplasmic walls, then go Ardent 1.  If not, go Mantled Erudite.

Also, why in the name of shit-christ are you going Metamind?  There are other ways to recharge your pp, even in realtime, and 5 lost caster levels over 10 levels in a PrC is more painful than being kicked in the dick by god.  Even if your GM bans pp-recharge (why is he letting font of power work if so?), all you need to do is get to 7th level powers, and then you can spend your downtime creating Soul Crystals (MoI) and covering them in quintessence.  Go Slayer, or if your GM is reading the Magic Mantle as '=', go Mindbender 1 (for Mindsight) / something else.  Chronorebel is a fantastic full manifesting PrC for psigishes, from 3rd party but widely respected 3.5 sourcebook 'Hyperconsciousness' from Dreamscarred Press(i'll send you the class if you're too out of pocket to pick up the pdf at the moment).

See if you can get Monastic Training dropped from the prereqs of Tashalatora, as it's the most useless bullshit prereq feat...

Overchannel and Talented are nice, especially at this level where nearly everything you know is 3rd level or lower.  But I still view them as strictly optional feats.  I'd probably invest in Snap Kick, Extend/Persist, or INA before them.  Don't forget, your psycrystal gets feats.  One should be Hidden Talent so it can do things like receive power points and psionically focus itself, but all the rest can be used as a feat bank for you, via Feat Leech.  Oh, and you don't have psionic meditation.  Psionic meditation, +hustle, +linked power, lets you buff in combat, using hustle's move action to regain the focus you blew using linked power.  

One thing you should probably look into is Incantatrix or Spelldancer and the Persist Spell feat.  Because your powers are spells, etc etc.  Psigishes can actually stand to buff in combat, thanks to Linked Power and later on things like Temporal Acceleration, Schism, and Control Body+Solicit Psycrystal.

A good way to fix your sucky BAB is to pick up Arcane Disciple:  Something With Divine Power.  There's one that has both Divine Power and Righteous Might, if you can believe it.

Oh, and i'm hoping you're a Kalashtar?  Quori Ectoplasmic Fist shards and Quori Link shards are utterly fucking terrifying in the hands of a monk psigish, and the extra pp aren't bad at all.

In any case, here's a short list of useful spells and powers for a monk psigish.

HAND TO HIND COMBAT:

OFFENSE

1st
Prescience (Offensive, Defensive)
Expansion
Bite Of The Wolf
Hammer (stacks with unarmed strike)
2nd
Strength Of My Enemy
Psionic Lion's Charge
Feat Leech
Painful Strike
Wraithstrike
Blood Wind
Improvisation
3rd
Mighty Whallop (and later, the Greater version, which kicks way more ass especially combined with other size-increasers)
Heroism
Physical Acceleration

DEFENSE

1st
Vigor
Inertial Armour
Force Screen
Prescience (Defensive)
Thicken Skin
2nd
Share Pain
Energy Adaptation, Specified
Concealing Amorpha
Detect Hostile Intent
3rd
Heart Of Water
Spiderskin
Mirror Image
Evade Burst
Alter Self

OTHER GENERICALLY USEFUL POWERS

1st
Entangling Ectoplasm
Grease, Psionic
Dimension Hop (CPsi)
2nd
Ego Whip
Astral Construct
Psionic Charm
Solicit Psycrystal
Wall Walker
Body Equilibrium
Psychoportive Shelter
3rd
Ray Of Stupidity
Energy Wall
Telekinetic Force
Telekinetic Thrust
Time Hop
Psionic Suggestion
Wings Of Cover
Touchsight
Read Thoughts

All listed at the level you learn them as (discipline powers and spells one level higher than their non erudite equivalents).

There's lots of other stuff, some of it more cheesier than others.  Metamorphosis is obviously insanely good, just like Polymorph.  A great buff spell is Necromantic Empowerment, although you need to find someone with the Mother Cyst feat to learn it from.  A great combo is Control Body (yourself) + Solicit Psycrystal.  So your Psycrystal maneuvers you around while you cast spells or whatnot, and you get to use your int instead of your dex and str for your AC, to hit, and damage.  The Bite Of The X line are very good, as well, and Bite Of The Werewolf comes online as a 5th level spell for you.  If you're planning to cast as well as fight, all the stuff in the psion handbook still applies, except probably 'how to do damage', as the damage you deliver, you deliver WITH YOUR FISTS OF JUSTICE!  And ofc the basic combo of vigor/share pain remains valid, although when Necromantic Empowerment comes online, it becomes that + share pain instead, because 100 THP is more than vigor gives and for a lot cheaper too.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2011, 08:02:36 PM »
Caramendine and Tash ... is an interesting question ??


Anybody have an idea of IF they stack or HOW they stack ??


Erudite + Metamind = not good combo
Erudite 7 with flavor, then has to keep PrC levels below Erudite levels.
Erudite 7 / Monk 1 with Tash / Slayer 6 / then back and forth Er then Sl

Ardent + Metamind + Temporal Reiteration in CPsi = only really workable Metamind build.
If you don't have CPsi, or your DM is bamfoozled by powerpoint recharge, then don't do it.

Monk + Ardent + Gish = do-able, although Carnivore prefers Psion.
Monk 1 or 2 and Tash / Ardent 10 with D.I. / Slayer 6 or 9 or 10 etc ...
Takes work though.

Rejakor

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2011, 11:47:22 PM »
Tashalatora doesn't set your wis to ac to int to ac.  Carmendine does.

Or Kung Fu Genius.

That's what it's in there for.  Oh, and stunning fist DCs.

He's dipping Ardent because he's feat deprived.. to be honest i'm liking that dip less and less.  Erudite 4/mindbender 1/slayer 2 is probably a fair bit better.

Nameless Void

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2011, 08:53:17 AM »
@Risada. Yes Erudites get a Psicrystal but Spell-to-Power do not. Unfortunately I am a Spell-to-Power (decided already though Rejakor intimated I strongly should be so it's probably a wise choice).

@Rejakor. I have a feeling you've done something similar (though by the information you have slightly - significantly - more powerful). Going through the information you've given me (and thank you so much for posting btw).

Power-wise. The DM does not want Tier 1's running around. Hence he put the top 6 out although luckily (due to a long friendship) I got an Erudite accepted though this is under the provision I not go overboard and attempt to RULE THE WORLD. So in terms of power - the ability to hold my own against anything I might come up against is wanted though nothing to crazy and overpowered (triple greatsword might be nice to my DM lol).

Quote
Secondly, what does your DM think the granted power of the Magic Mantle does?  Does it let your ML = CL and your powers = spells?  Because that changes your ballgame slightly in terms of what you can do and how easily.
I'm interested in what you mean by this. How does this change things? It will likely be ML = CL and your powers = spells as this is essentially how the Mantle reads.

Spell-To-Power Erudite lose their 1st level bonus Feat. So unfortunately I don't get that. Or do I?

Metamind was more for free pp and to keep from becoming too powerful.

Quote
more painful than being kicked in the dick by god.
 
This made me laugh out loud!!

Slayer is likely the way to go from what you have intimated thus far. But unfortunately I am unable to get Monastic Training dropped from the prereqs of Tashalatora.

Quote
Overchannel and Talented are nice, especially at this level where nearly everything you know is 3rd level or lower.  But I still view them as strictly optional feats.  I'd probably invest in Snap Kick, Extend/Persist, or INA before them.  Don't forget, your psycrystal gets feats.  One should be Hidden Talent so it can do things like receive power points and psionically focus itself, but all the rest can be used as a feat bank for you, via Feat Leech.  Oh, and you don't have psionic meditation.  Psionic meditation, +hustle, +linked power, lets you buff in combat, using hustle's move action to regain the focus you blew using linked power.
Interesting. I'll probably wait for my next feat before getting Snap Kick. Personal preference is to get feats for Powers. But Feat Leech is certainly an idea.

Incantatrix or Spelldancer are out. I don't even have to ask to find out. However Temporal Acceleration, Schism, are not. I'm going to have to look at Control Body+Solicit Psycrystal.

Quote
A good way to fix your sucky BAB is to pick up Arcane Disciple:  Something With Divine Power.  There's one that has both Divine Power and Righteous Might, if you can believe it
Definitely a GREAT idea. Thank you!

Quote
Oh, and i'm hoping you're a Kalashtar?  Quori Ectoplasmic Fist shards and Quori Link shards are utterly fucking terrifying in the hands of a monk psigish, and the extra pp aren't bad at all.
No, not allowed to be a Kalashtar. I am a Half-Giant with no LA.

In any case, here's a short list of useful spells and powers for a monk psigish.
[spoiler]
HAND TO HIND COMBAT:

OFFENSE

1st
Prescience (Offensive, Defensive)
Expansion
Bite Of The Wolf
Hammer (stacks with unarmed strike)
2nd
Strength Of My Enemy
Psionic Lion's Charge
Feat Leech
Painful Strike
Wraithstrike
Blood Wind
Improvisation
3rd
Mighty Whallop (and later, the Greater version, which kicks way more ass especially combined with other size-increasers)
Heroism
Physical Acceleration

DEFENSE

1st
Vigor
Inertial Armour
Force Screen
Prescience (Defensive)
Thicken Skin
2nd
Share Pain
Energy Adaptation, Specified
Concealing Amorpha
Detect Hostile Intent
3rd
Heart Of Water
Spiderskin
Mirror Image
Evade Burst
Alter Self

OTHER GENERICALLY USEFUL POWERS

1st
Entangling Ectoplasm
Grease, Psionic
Dimension Hop (CPsi)
2nd
Ego Whip
Astral Construct
Psionic Charm
Solicit Psycrystal
Wall Walker
Body Equilibrium
Psychoportive Shelter
3rd
Ray Of Stupidity
Energy Wall
Telekinetic Force
Telekinetic Thrust
Time Hop
Psionic Suggestion
Wings Of Cover
Touchsight
Read Thoughts

All listed at the level you learn them as (discipline powers and spells one level higher than their non erudite equivalents).

There's lots of other stuff, some of it more cheesier than others.  Metamorphosis is obviously insanely good, just like Polymorph.  A great buff spell is Necromantic Empowerment, although you need to find someone with the Mother Cyst feat to learn it from.  A great combo is Control Body (yourself) + Solicit Psycrystal.  So your Psycrystal maneuvers you around while you cast spells or whatnot, and you get to use your int instead of your dex and str for your AC, to hit, and damage.  The Bite Of The X line are very good, as well, and Bite Of The Werewolf comes online as a 5th level spell for you.  If you're planning to cast as well as fight, all the stuff in the psion handbook still applies, except probably 'how to do damage', as the damage you deliver, you deliver WITH YOUR FISTS OF JUSTICE!  And ofc the basic combo of vigor/share pain remains valid, although when Necromantic Empowerment comes online, it becomes that + share pain instead, because 100 THP is more than vigor gives and for a lot cheaper too.
[/spoiler]

Wow. Thank you so much!!!
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Rejakor

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2011, 02:35:39 PM »
Magic Mantle is super vague in what it actually does.  It can be read that it conflates magic and psionics entirely, more than transparency does, or it can be read that it does what transparency does.  There's really no way to tell.  So basically what you can use it for depends on how your DM reads it.  My view is that it should do something more than transparency does because transparency already does that, but /shrug.  Some people are definitely going to read it and go 'this does <transparency>', and if that's how your DM is reading it, you can't take some prestige classes and whatnot.

It's good to know you have a power level you're building to.  That's the rational way to handle people going 'omg optimizers breaking the game' and 'omg you're weaker than you need to be'.  Build a character to a certain power level, and then don't 'hold back' or whatever in game.  Play the character like it is a real person desperately trying to live/kill enemies whatever.


The power level I was doing it at was significantly higher.. I pretty much got as far as I needed to go with kalashtar + size increases, though.  I also was a bit higher level than this, but I found that other than increasing my AC to really high with control body, inertial armour, force screen, etc, increasing my to-hit with control body, divine power, improvisation (although you could go the other route and have a high strength and use bite of the weretiger/werewolf + strength of my enemy to get stupid insane str (50ish) instead of using high int + necromantic empowerment + enhancement bonus + control body like I did, but it was a flavour thing on my part (plus the extra pp was good since the GM wasn't allowing recharge)), wraithstrike, and using greater mighty whallop and held touch spell charges (Spell flower for 2) and kalashtar shards and INA (via Fanged Ring) to hit for like 24d8+paltry.

If you weren't going kalashtar and still wanted that level of damage, you have enough feats to go hood if you don't overload on metamagic.  For metamagic, unless you're planning on blasting, all you need is linked power (for shenanigans) and extend+persist (for all day buffing combined with spelldancer or incantatrix or a lot of other feats).  Without persist, but with recharge, you can 'Nova' by stopping time and using lots of short duration buffs, or 'powering up' using temporal reiteration on a schism to keep all your durations 'fresh', and you treat your pp like an anime character's 'power' or 'chakra' or whatever... it runs out, but with time, (unless you're entirely exhausted) it can be renewed.  So the length of time between fights, and how much power to employ (or whether or not to go all out) become meaningful choices.  Without pp regen, you're a lot more like a wizard, hoarding power and trying to deploy as little as possible.  Personally I prefer the pp regen method as it makes fights way more cinematic but you still have to worry about nova'ing too hard and getting caught out while you're weak.

I also forgot to mention dimension hop.  It's a 2nd level ardent power, swift action teleportation, 5' per pp, fantastic for the sort of strike-fade tactics the chrono-legionnaire employs, if you want to do that.  Greater blink lets you walk through walls, so that's good too with hustle as a kind of poor-man's shadowpounce.


Oh and by the way... the erudite gets 2 bonus feats at first level... psycrystal and one other... spell to power erudites only lose one.. that's how you can be both spell to power and mantled, you lose both bonus feats and then spend your first level feat on a psycrystal (as psycrystals REALLY ARE THAT GOOD).  With share spells and metamorphosis, you basically get another you on the battlefield.  Make it either look like a clone of you, or for that psionics feel, an astral construct (yes I know 12 headed cryohydra is better but goddamnit people thematics!  THEMATICS).  Plus they're a feat battery for your feat leech, and they're fantastic for scouting and all kinds of other things (see the psionic dirty tricks thread, not that i'm suggesting you do shards of leadership or something).


But yeah, that list of powers/spells is woefully incomplete as I just didn't need more power out of it at that point.  There's no good resource for gish spells, and the psywar handbook is alright for some gish powers but there's more on discipline lists and stuff that aren't listed anywhere or explained why they're good.. so it's a bit of a hard slog.


Snap Kick is absolutely amazing for a monk gish.  Absolutely amazing.  It's a free attack, even on your standard action attacks or whatever (arguably, even on AoOs), that stacks with everything.  Everything else says 'this is like haste and doesn't stack with haste or similar effects'.  Haste/Phys Accel comes online at 3rd level spells/powers, and Sakkratar's Triple Strike (2 extra attacks)(doesn't stack with haste) comes online at 5th level spells/6th level powers, and NOTHING ELSE gives extra attacks ever at all.


Oh, and you probably won't want this, but you get the version of the spell the spellcaster prepared.. so if they prepare an empowered fireball, you learn fireball as a 5th level spell.  6th level power.  If they prepare a Sanctum fireball and they're not in their sanctum... it's a 2nd level spell.  3rd level power.  Doing that can get you spells at the same level other people get spells.  Also you technically don't need arcane disciple, you just need someone who has learned divine power as an arcane spell, and there's various ways to do that (including, I think, arcane disciple, not sure though).

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2011, 04:30:43 PM »
You can't use Metamorphosis to become an ectoplasmic creature, so no astral constructs.

Polymorph works, though, but only for living constructs.
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nijineko

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2011, 12:13:12 AM »
this has probably been had out else where, but since the psicrystal's advancement is listed as -, and cr is listed as "included with master", and hd is a function of the master's, not something it possesses on its' own, i don't think they get feats as other advanced constructs might. the psicrystal is basically a feat that mimics a construct closely, not an actual construct in its' own right.

however, i think the idea of the psicrystal getting its' own feats is very cool. i would like to see some sort of emancipated familiar/psicrystal/mount/whatever prestige that allows it to keep or regain its' own abilities, even if the master dies.
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Rejakor

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2011, 02:02:13 AM »

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2011, 05:10:39 PM »
intelligence and HD gets feats.
Fixed.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Rejakor

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2011, 06:53:01 PM »
Yeah, I forgot about that.  Good thing psycrystals have an int score.

Now answer my goddamn metapower question in the other thread!

awaken DM golem

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2011, 08:25:22 PM »
 :debate ... argued with my kitty avatar ... and changed my mind.

Metamind 1 (and only 1) gets around the Erudite Uniques restriction.
Erudite 5 / Metamind 1 is rather juicy in E6.
Each 1st level power free 3/day + Linked = good enough work around.
Have to use other initial powers before using the free 1s.

Compare to Soulknife 1 with the Mind's Eye update / Erudite 5.
More self generated powers, if no other Psi around.
More powerpoints and in the same pool,
but Uniques and Hidden Talents operate separately.

Personally, I wanna got Erudite 7 first and then goodies, but situationally ... like E6.

Rejakor

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2011, 02:50:51 PM »
For a erudite caster, I agree with that.

I suppose metamind 1 loses nothing so I don't disagree with that all.

But a erudite psigish using spell to power needs to rush to about ML 9 as fast as he can.  Then, he has most of the buffs he needs to be really effective. (4th level spells) and can work on other things if he wants (like a way of persisting).

awaken DM golem

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2011, 09:26:39 PM »
Sure, StP can be a good gish.

Discipline variant picks Psychokinesis (Evocation).
Needs the Chameleon Crafting feat from Dr#349.
Party Cleric provides Divine Power at level 7,
to help Erudite make Powerstone of Divine Power.
Then he Learns + Repertoires it in.
Spellpoint Divine Power shared with the Psicrystal = happy.
Later you do Miracle !

Discipline E is 2 or 3 feats down on the others early,
but only if you try to get Arcanes or Divines over.
And it needs a helper or two. Level 7 is Go Time.

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2011, 04:58:52 PM »
Since a spell-to-power (or even just normal) erudite already knows all the powers and spells in his head, wouldn't it be easy to merely get some higher level powers and jack your manifester level up?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Rejakor

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2011, 03:31:37 PM »
If your GM is letting you do the powerstone shuffle, things get a lot more insane a lot more quickly, yeah.

I was thinking Divine Power through Arcane Disciple (Heroism Domain).

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Re: Powers for an Erudite
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2011, 06:16:44 PM »

... Metamind was more for free pp and to keep from becoming too powerful ...


Oh. One of those things. 
:(   :pout   :)


Monk 1 / Erudite 5 or Erudite 1 + Ardent 4 / Metamind 2+ ... certainly qualifies as not too powerful.
Tash or Carmindine stuff ; Linked feat of course ; Prac Manifester on Ardent or Erudite

Powerstones and the +1 Uniques feat and Elemental Envoy feat are standard stuff on any Erudite build.
If you don't use them, you are gimping yourself. But since you want that, hey it'll work.