Hey, Paragon Multiclassers! Remember How You HATE Replacing An At-Will?

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Well, how much do you use basic attacks?  Observe!

At 11th level, you can choose to replace one of your at-will powers with an at-will power from your second class.

Now, my plan before has been to use goblins or kobolds and get rid of things like their racials.  However, a piece of text caught my eye.

A basic attack is an at-will attack power that everyone possesses, regardless of class.

It goes on to say that there are two flavors, melee and ranged, yadda yadda yadda.  It even gives us little green boxes for both.

Now you could argue that you'd have to give up one or give up both... but the text is pretty unambiguous when it comes to the fact that you can gain a power from your second class by replacing a basic attack.

(Note that Warlocks love this to death due to Eldrich Blast; Heavy Blade Opportunity users also like this a lot.)

[Squirrelloid]

Well, how much do you use basic attacks?  Observe!

At 11th level, you can choose to replace one of your at-will powers with an at-will power from your second class.

Now, my plan before has been to use goblins or kobolds and get rid of things like their racials.  However, a piece of text caught my eye.

A basic attack is an at-will attack power that everyone possesses, regardless of class.

It goes on to say that there are two flavors, melee and ranged, yadda yadda yadda.  It even gives us little green boxes for both.

Now you could argue that you'd have to give up one or give up both... but the text is pretty unambiguous when it comes to the fact that you can gain a power from your second class by replacing a basic attack.

(Note that Warlocks love this to death due to Eldrich Blast; Heavy Blade Opportunity users also like this a lot.)

And people on gleemax don't believe me when I say the very basic rules are functionally quite ambiguous.

[Alpha]

A basic attack is an at-will attack power that everyone possesses, regardless of class.

Which is the more specific rule:  paragon multiclassing, or the basic attack power?

As we can consider paragon multiclassing to give you a second class, does that mean you will always possess a basic attack, regardless of your second class's rules?  Would you trade out your basic attack, only to find that you still have one, because everyone does?

I know this isn't a terribly strong objection, but I figured we should make sure ALL our bases are covered.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Not very practical optimization is it? I don't know a single DM who would allow you to give up the ability to simply swing your weapon for a new at-will.

[Squirrelloid]

Not very practical optimization is it? I don't know a single DM who would allow you to give up the ability to simply swing your weapon for a new at-will.

Wait, did bg secretly become gleemax?  Why wasn't I informed?

Because clearly no DM would ever follow a literal reading of the rules.  And clearly what happens in actual games depends so much on how the actual rules work...     DMs use houserules all the time, that doesn't make houserules part of the core rules.

[Alpha]

It's still worth noting when optimization is practical or not, Squirrelloid.

As far as DMs allowing it, I'd expect it to depend on the mindset of the DM(and I don't just mean those who go for RAW over RAI).

If a DM REALLY examines the implications of this loophole, he might realize it's not so bad:  Paragon Multiclassing sucks.  There are 2 rules possibilities I've seen so far that make it suck less.  This is one, and the other is the possibility of using the replacement class feature to gain higher-level powers from your paragon multiclass.  Both are rules that the careful DM will likely houserule, but when he realizes the character is still not unbalanced, but he may let it slide.

So it's entirely possible to have a DM who lets it slide based simply on the fact that it's not a big deal.  This makes it more 'practical optimization' than Blade Cascade cheese ever was(despite Blade Cascade having a more firm rules basis).

[AlienFromBeyond]

It's still worth noting when optimization is practical or not, Squirrelloid.

As far as DMs allowing it, I'd expect it to depend on the mindset of the DM(and I don't just mean those who go for RAW over RAI).

If a DM REALLY examines the implications of this loophole, he might realize it's not so bad:  Paragon Multiclassing sucks.  There are 2 rules possibilities I've seen so far that make it suck less.  This is one, and the other is the possibility of using the replacement class feature to gain higher-level powers from your paragon multiclass.  Both are rules that the careful DM will likely houserule, but when he realizes the character is still not unbalanced, but he may let it slide.

So it's entirely possible to have a DM who lets it slide based simply on the fact that it's not a big deal.  This makes it more 'practical optimization' than Blade Cascade cheese ever was(despite Blade Cascade having a more firm rules basis).

Admittedly, it does help Paragon Multiclassing a fair bit. Even with that, I don't think I'd take it. The problem is that while you still get powers from a Paragon Multiclass, you don't get anything to replace the Paragon Path abilities you lose. Not to mention the opportunity cost (4 feats, though the initial multiclass one is better than skill training).

[PhoenixInferno]

Also, charges are lost to most.   So are OAs, unless you're a Heavy Blade Opportunist.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Unless you lose Ranged.  In which case you're only really down if there's a Warlord in the party, and perhaps not even then if you're a Warlock or Wizard or are in melee a lot.

[Kuroimaken]

This may just be my sleep-deprived brain hallucinating, but I'm starting to wonder what lovely applications this discovery could lead to -- and failing miserably at figuring some of them out. For example (and this is just an example, remember) what happens if you trade your basic ranged for, say, Eldritch Blast and decide to use Twin Strike?

[Commx]

This may just be my sleep-deprived brain hallucinating, but I'm starting to wonder what lovely applications this discovery could lead to -- and failing miserably at figuring some of them out. For example (and this is just an example, remember) what happens if you trade your basic ranged for, say, Eldritch Blast and decide to use Twin Strike?

Nothing, as Twin Strike for characters doesn't say "Make two Basic Attacks", but specifically mentions two make two attacks with your Ranged weapon (or one with your main weapon and one with your off-hand weapon if dual-wielding).

[Kuroimaken]

Nothing, as Twin Strike for characters doesn't say "Make two Basic Attacks", but specifically mentions two make two attacks with your Ranged weapon (or one with your main weapon and one with your off-hand weapon if dual-wielding).

That's what I thought. Dangit.

[Runestar]

If you are a fighter and are fairly sure that you will not require ranged attacks, it may not be such a bad idea, though as mentioned, taking paragon multiclassing is already a very bad career choice to start with, so all you are really doing is making the most out of a crappy situation.

Interesting, to say the least. I am not so much worried about the sort of abuse this might result in, but more about what the implications of your basic attack apparently being considered as an at-will power (or at least, the equivalent of) may have when it comes to interacting with other abilities. A potentially slippery slope, to say the least.

[Alpha]

With several interesting interpretations/loopholes available, I'm wondering if anyone can come up with a Paragon Multiclass character that does something other than fail?

Because I'll be honest: the contrarian in me totally wants to take the assumption that "paragon multiclassing sucks" and blow it into tiny pieces which I can then pour over my cornflakes in the morning.

[DemonLord57]

With several interesting interpretations/loopholes available, I'm wondering if anyone can come up with a Paragon Multiclass character that does something other than fail?

Because I'll be honest: the contrarian in me totally wants to take the assumption that "paragon multiclassing sucks" and blow it into tiny pieces which I can then pour over my cornflakes in the morning.

Fighter/Cleric wielding a Glaive. Starts with 18 Str, 15 Dex, and 16 Wis. (Str Dex or Str Wis race) He gets Righteous Brand, which he uses on his OAs (very nice) For his daily picks, he picks up Divine Power and Holy Wrath. Lots of regen + other very nice benefits + close burst 2 or 3 (marking everyone there) is good for a Defender. He could pick other pretty fantastic dailies (like Blade Barrier for control, Fire Storm for AoE damage + marking) if he wants to branch out. For his utility, he gets rid of his rather useless level 10 utility, and picks up another level 10 utility from paragon multiclassing. Good thing Clerics have nice level 10 utilities. I'd take Mass Cure Light Wounds and Shielding Word. For his encounter power from paragon multiclassing, he'll probably pick up either Stengthen the Faithful (even more ability to heal himself) or Awe Strike (immobilize is good, vs. Will is good). I don't really have anything in particular that I'd pick for my encounter power from the feat. Inspiring Strike looks good for even more ability to heal oneself.

[Fuzzy_Logic]

Honestly, many of my characters only have one at-will they like anyway-- and if I'm bothering ot paragon multiclass, it's to pick up some egreiously good at-will that probably obviated one of my old ones anyway. 

(A Fighter doesn't need Sure Strike when he has Riposte Strike or Righteous Brand)

So I don't much see the point of this exploit. 

[Squirrelloid]

Honestly, many of my characters only have one at-will they like anyway-- and if I'm bothering ot paragon multiclass, it's to pick up some egreiously good at-will that probably obviated one of my old ones anyway. 

(A Fighter doesn't need Sure Strike when he has Riposte Strike or Righteous Brand)

So I don't much see the point of this exploit. 

You're trying to be a fighter/wizard.  Aside from the utter stupidity of this proposition, people seem to want to do it.  Now, what were you using that basic ranged attack for that couldn't better be accomplished with magic missile, or just take scorching burst - for great justice!

[Fuzzy_Logic]

Yeah, I've tried and tried and can't make a fighter/wizard I'm happy with.

Warlord/Wizard on the other hand, seems pretty good...

[Psychic Robot]

This is getting posted to Gleemax.  I'll return with the (hilarious) results in the Logic Fail thread.

[Psychic Robot]

Yep, Logic Failure total.

Anyway, here's an objection:

you're only allowed to replace a power with one of equal or lower level, and basic attacks have no level attached to them

So it would seem that this might not work.