Author Topic: (3.5 & pathfinder) looking for volleyacher max  (Read 3370 times)

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miz redavni

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(3.5 & pathfinder) looking for volleyacher max
« on: May 21, 2011, 03:51:13 AM »
ive been tearing the internet apart looking for the volleyacher and i cant seem to find it... does anyone know where i can find it? i told my dm about it and he really likes the idea and is fully behind me making it(but he wants me to do it with a hand-crossbow). so of course, i need to make him regret it by cheese coating it

umm i think i should put this here so people can see this and not have to read the whole thread to find it
just found out that we are doing a lord of the rings campaign with low magic with both 3.5 and pathfinder material. casters can only use up to lvl 6 casting and there aren't to many magic items ether. we also play with a homebrew rule that you get 1 extra feat every odd lvl

we start at lvl 10 so im going human fighter 4/ ranger 6

all of this is dm approved and i made this character on the premise that i have no idea on how long this campaign will last.

feats(not in this order)(fighter=3, human=1, ranger=2, homebrew rule=5)
 1)mercantile background(frcs pg 36)
 2)pointblank shot
 3)rapidshot
 4)improved rapidshot
 5)farshot
 6)manyshot
 7)precise shot
 8)quickdraw
 9)improved precise shot
10)rapid reload
11)exotic weapon proff. repeating crossbow

weapons
1)composite longbow with splitting(just foundout from you guys that composite has a rule that you use str mod, hes letting use dex mod)
2)repeating crossbow, light
3)repeating crossbow, light

haven't chosen equipment yet
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 07:02:21 AM by miz redavni »

Talore

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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2011, 04:51:28 AM »
i need to make him regret it by cheese coating it
No, you absolutely do not need to make your DM regret it. You'll be the one regreting treating the DM as your enemy when he walks out on you and you're out of a game.
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miz redavni

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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2011, 05:33:41 AM »
ok but i still need to make a volley archer

Gavinfoxx

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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2011, 09:06:09 AM »
Have you read the various archery handbooks? Archery is NOT extremely well supported in D&D as a primary means of being 'cheese coated', just FYI.  The game has a hard hate-on for archery, is the problem..

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=194.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0

And what PRECISELY do you mean by volley archer? Volley usually implies a bunch of people firing at once.  Do you want to do many attacks in one round, IE a rapid shot focused type (machine gun style), or do you want to do something that focuses on many attacks *at once*, via Manyshot and Greater Manyshot?

The best way to do a 'cheese coated' volley archer is to do a greater manyshot build, maybe with a very very very specific cloistered cleric 1 dip, and getting the wizard to polymorph you into an Arrow Demon, while you wield two Hank's Bows, and then manyshot with them both, while power shotting where appropriate.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 09:10:10 AM by Gavinfoxx »
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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2011, 12:42:51 PM »
You will need woodland archery.

You'll hit 100 AC every time if you're firing 25+ arrows.

Biggest and easiest contributor is the Splitting weapon enhancement (Champions of Ruin). Doubles your number of attacks.
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miz redavni

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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2011, 05:43:37 AM »
Sorry tried to quote and my itouch didn't like that very much...

A volleyarcher is someone that has maximized the amount of arrows or bolts that they can fire in a standard action(atleast that's what I was told)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 12:45:51 AM by miz redavni »

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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2011, 03:52:53 PM »
Factotum 10 with Manyshot can Polymorph himself and Manyshot twice a turn.
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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2011, 07:54:11 PM »
As far as I've found, you can do basically four things with archery in DND.

First, you can two-weapon fight with hand crossbows.  Most damage will be within 60 feet, and its very feat heavy.  [urlhttp://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8335.msg277854#msg277854][/url]

Second, you can snipe (shoot from hiding).  You won't be doing as much damage, or firing as many arrows, and most parties don't meld with the style well.

Third, you can use magic, either arcane or divine.  Cleric and Seeker of the Misty Isle are good for divine archers, and Bard6/Virtuoso2/Arcane Archer2/Sublime Chord2/Adjurant Champion5/ Full Casting X is good for arcane. This is my favorite.

Fourth, you can shoot from extremely long range.  Unless you've got a reliable means of destroying targets with one arrow (arcane archer's 10th level ability), a means of scrying (chain of eyes or a familiar), and DM fiat, this is pretty difficult to pull off.


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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2011, 10:11:45 PM »
Okay, you'll be wanting to get Greater Manyshot, and a way to polymorph into an Arrow Demon somehow, and a way to get extra standard actions.
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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2011, 04:12:03 PM »
Volley archery isn't a terrible concept... I think it's actually a lot more useful than the super-long range archery, which is really really cool when you pull it off, but won't necessarily be feasible every session.  It's a nice trick to pull out of your hat if you can, but I hate to see builds more or less constructed around the idea.

For volley archery to be successful, yes, you want to be able to fire as many shots in a single round as you can, but as important is adding bonus damage to each shot.  You want to fit on as many of the following forms of bonus damage as you can:.

-Strength bonus from composite bows, or dex bonus from crossbows with Crossbow Sniper.
-Knowledge Devotion (no volley archer should be without Knowledge Devotion).
-Sneak attack/sudden strike.  Requires a reliable way of getting sneak attack in, and requires being within 30'/60', depending on the build.
-Skirmish damage.  More useful than the above because of its easier trigger, and especially good for mounted archers, who can move and take full attacks.  Still requires being within 30'/60'.
-Favored enemy.
-Magic bonuses.  The best way to really do this is to focus exclusively on enchantments that add bonus damage to your weapon, and then use GMW or Metaphysical Weapon.
-Spells and/or powers.  Too many to list.
-Weapon specialization and the associated feat tree.  Generally not worth it, because the levels required to invest in it preclude you from taking on most of the other options.

For getting as many attacks as possible, you want to look at ways to increase the number of "attack" actions you get, and ways to increase your number of attacks within those actions.

-As has been mentioned multiple times, polymorphing/metamorphosing into an Arrow Demon and using Greater Manyshot.  If you can reliably do this, it's hard to find anything much better.
-Spells/items that give you extra attack actions.  Boots of Speed and/or straight-up casting haste is pretty much a must.
-Class abilities such as a barbarian's Whirling Frenzy (UA variant).
-Feats that increase your number of attacks.  You are either looking at making full attacks, or manyshotting.  In general, full attacks are preferable, except in some specific scenarios (Swift Hunters with no mount, the above-referenced Arrow Demon setup, etc).
-Two-Weapon Fighting.  Only really applicable with crossbows, and you need either Quick Draw and a whole lot of hand crossbows or some method of reloading during your action.  That being said, the TWF chain can get you an awful lot of attacks.

Again, just work on getting as many of these together as you can.  This will be easier (and better) if you're a caster of some sort, but it's not required.

I've toyed around with decent volley archers in the past, and any of the following will be solid:

-A mounted Swift Hunter.  Knowledge Devotion, skirmish, favored enemy, some limited spells.  Ride on a mount so that you can make a full attack and move in the same round.  Find someone to enchant your weapon for you, please - you won't have the stats to invest very heavily in UMD to do it yourself.  It's not game breaking, but it's a solid character and shouldn't be underrated.

-Chameleon.  Chameleon is very flexible, but works especially well for archers, because of their ability to cherry-pick spells that help out their cause.  Chameleons can go the "traditional" archery route, or they can go with the Monk -> Soulknife -> Soulbow zen archer.  The latter takes advantage of Flurry of Blows with the Soulbow for additional attempts, and focuses on Wisdom synergy, but ends up losing out somewhat due to less enchantment options on the bow.  Also, they bloom as characters much later.

-Archivist/Cleric.  I prefer Archivist, who can potentially pick up some very nice spells off of other spell lists (especially the ranger spell list), and who has natural synergy between Knowledge Devotion and Dark Tactics.  However, you can't argue with a classic like the cleric archer, and Divine Metamagic alone makes the character worthwhile.  But Divine Metamagic can also single-handedly break games, so use with care.

-Psychic Warrior.  Honestly, I think psychic warriors make the best "out of the box" archers in the game.  They've got the bonus feats to stand up to archery (which is a very feat-intensive fighting style), their powers are about as good as they come, and Zen Archery means they've got natural Wisdom synergy.  If you want to get silly, you can pick up Metamorphosis via Expanded Knowledge (requires being an Outsider).

-Wizards, because they can do basically anything.  They get access to the best offensive buffs in the game, including Polymorph (allowing for the dual-bow wielding Arrow Demon trick).  I would go with a Swiftblade, personally.  You get enough casting to make it worthwhile, but boost your BAB, and the free castings of Haste (without even costing you actions) combined with Swift Surge makes for some very nice synergy with a volley archer.  The only downside is that you've got to take some useless feats to get there, and archers are always feat-hungry.

If you know for sure which direction you want to go in, I can give you more specific advice, but as you can see, there are a LOT of options here.

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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2011, 10:46:56 PM »
Errata for Complete Adventurer makes it so that you cannot utilize Skirmish while mounted.

JaronK

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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2011, 11:37:22 PM »
If you're using a hand crossbow anyway, consider the following:

Feat Rogue 2/Targeteer Fighter 2/Warblade 16

Use Hand Crossbow Focus for free action reloads.  Have a persistent Grallion Arms so you can have extra arms and this TWF with the things, making better use of Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose.  Vital Aim gives dex to damage, Crossbow Sniper does something similar, and Deadeye Shot rounds it out for 2.5 X dex to damage.  Other maneuvers to use would be Time Stands Still and White Raven Tactics.  Use Improved Critical to get 17-20 crits, and use Blood in the Water as well to boost damage and hitting.  Keeping in theme, make them Aptitude Splitting Handcrossbows so you get to use Lightning Mace and Roundabout Kick with them, and now every critical hit grants two extra shots.  The Concussion enchantment helps too with +5 to damage.  Don't forget Rapid Shot and possibly Greater Rapid Shot.  Educated makes all knowledge skills class skills, which when combined with Knowledge Devotion gives an additional +5 to hit and damage (eventually).

At level 20 you could open a fight with Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose, so your total number of shots would be 4 base, +1 rapid shot, +3 TWF line, +2 Raging Mongoose, doubled for splitting, doubled again for time stands still, for 40 shots.  Since you're entirely Dex based with a touch of Int (and you get Int to confirm critical hits), on average you get 8 critical hits for an extra 32 shots (thanks to Splitting + Lightning Mace + Roundabout Kick), which themselves give an extra 24, which then give an extra 20, which give an extra 16, which give an extra 12, which give an extra 8, which give an extra 4, which should just about end it.  Total average shots in this round: 156.  Total bonus to hit and damage from Blood in the Water at the end of this: +116.  If that doesn't kill the enemy, few other things will... just make sure you have enough bolts!

JaronK

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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2011, 11:51:43 PM »
do remember the "deadeye" dex to damage feat from the dragon compendium book. handy for dex based builds.
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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2011, 11:42:42 AM »
Errata for Complete Adventurer makes it so that you cannot utilize Skirmish while mounted.

Blargh, that's sad.  I really liked the mounted Swift Hunter.  Oh, well - I guess that makes it a decent bit less valuable as a volley archer.  The other advice should still stand, though.

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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2011, 01:53:07 PM »
With JaronK's build, I might suggest Aptitude Splitting Force Hand Crossbows, so you don't need to carry HUNDREDS of bolts on your person...
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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2011, 05:52:04 PM »
With JaronK's build, I might suggest Aptitude Splitting Force Hand Crossbows, so you don't need to carry HUNDREDS of bolts on your person...

You actually don't fire off more shots than you would have normally if you were soloing the encounter, because as soon as they're dead you stop shooting (and you would have shot till they're dead anyway).  But Force is still a darn handy property, as is Collision. 

Getting GMW cast on your crossbows is a darn good plan too.

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miz redavni

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Re: 3.5 looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2011, 06:46:39 AM »
just found out that we are doing a lord of the rings campaign with low magic with both 3.5 and pathfinder material. casters can only use up to lvl 6 casting and there aren't to many magic items ether. we also play with a homebrew rule that you get 1 extra feat every odd lvl

we start at lvl 10 so im going human fighter 4/ ranger 6

all of this is dm approved and i made this character on the premise that i have no idea on how long this campaign will last.

feats(not in this order)(fighter=3, human=1, ranger=2, homebrew rule=5)
 1)mercantile background(frcs pg 36)
 2)pointblank shot
 3)rapidshot
 4)improved rapidshot
 5)farshot
 6)manyshot
 7)precise shot
 8)quickdraw
 9)improved precise shot
10)rapid reload
11)exotic weapon proff. repeating crossbow

weapons
1)composite longbow with splitting(just foundout from you guys that composite has a rule that you use str mod, hes letting use dex mod)
2)repeating crossbow, light
3)repeating crossbow, light

haven't chosen equipment yet

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Re: (3.5 & pathfinder) looking for volleyacher max
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2011, 06:53:28 AM »
I would suggest Ranger3/Souldknife2/Souldbow10/Kensai5

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