Author Topic: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank  (Read 4736 times)

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axleleft

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Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« on: May 15, 2011, 05:15:12 AM »
Hi all. So the concept is using Runesmith, Abjurant Champion, and Deepwarden to have a nice gish tank. 3.5 books are open though some of the really weird stuff may not make past the final DM approval. Pathfinder used for races and feat progression as far as I know. Here's what I have so far:

Str 14, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8

Ranger 1: Endurance, 4 Climb, 4 Heal, 4 Jump, 4 Dungeoneer, 4 Survival, 4 Listen, 4 Spot, 4 Craft(Stonework), Favored Terrain[variant](Dungeons)
Paladin 1: +1 Heal, +1 Survival, +1 Dungeoneering, +1 Concentration
Paladin 2: Serenity [Dungeon Compendium vol1: use Wisdom instead of Cha for Paladin abilities], +4 Concentration
Paladin 3: +1 Str, +2 Craft(stonework), +1 Climb, +1 Jump
Wizard 1: Combat Casting, +2 Craft(stonework), 2 SP left and all PrC requirements met.
Runesmith 1: +4 SP, can now cast in armor because Rune Magic is awesome like that (all prepared spells gain a material component but lose the somatic component).
Deepwarden 1: Feat, +8 SP
Deepwarden 2: +1 Str, +8 SP, Stone Warden lets Con replace Dex for AC (and with mithril full-plate I'll be getting the full benefit).
Abjurant Champion 1:Feat, +4 SP
Abjurant Champion 2: +4 SP, Swift Abjuration makes casting Shield much more convenient.

I don't know if getting beyond level 10 is reasonable for the campaign (I'd probably just finish out Abjurant Champion). We're starting at around level 5 (maybe 6 or 7) and it's a first time DM. I'm not sold on Paladin for the core of the beat-stick portion of the build though I like the bonus to saves and enjoy playing paladin types. Having to use a feat to get the Cha to Wis swap strikes me as inefficient. I was thinking Crusader but the idea is to not take damage so I'd be losing out on the Furious Counterstrike and delayed damage. I was thinking that some of those "spare" SP would go into Survival so as to actually get use out of Track. Not sure what to do with the rest or with those last two feats. Casting as a level 4 Wizard at level 10, so spells I'm thinking of:
(1) Shield, Protection From X, Enlarge Person (wielding a Dwarven Waraxe so 1d10 to 2d8)
(2) Resist Energy, bull's strength
I was thinking of going Abjuration Focused Specialist to get an additional 3 slots for abjuration spells and losing a general slot (-1 slot, +1 abj slot for spec, +2 abj slot for focus). The problem is losing three schools. Two is not so bad, as a gish, enchantment and evocation are fairly useless (with some exceptions). The problem is I cannot think of a third school to lose. Maye ditch Necromancy?

Other than mithril full-plate and a dwarven waraxe I don't know what magic item type stuff to go for (the last gish I played was much higher level and was casting as a medium level duskblade and a high level wizard with spell channel from two different PrC so it was a very different priority for items, something like duskblade/wizard/ultimate magus/spellknight/raumathari battlemage).

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Re: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2011, 05:31:58 AM »
Lose Runesmith.  It's not helping you, really.  Take a Dwarf variant that gets -2 Dex instead of -2 Cha and use Sorcerer casting instead of Wizard casting.  Besides, RAI, FAQ, and a good chunk of DMs say that armor still limits your Con bonus to AC from Deepwarden.  Playing with that in mind is probably safer.

Ranger 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer 2/Deepwarden 2/Abjurant Champion 3

What this gets you is a +9 Greater Mage Armor, a +7 Shield (cast swiftly), Con to AC, Cha to Saves and powering Spellcasting... so you should be able to manage a decent AC.  Also, you'll have an immediate action invulnerability spell (Wings of Cover).

Littha

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Re: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2011, 05:37:30 AM »
The problem with having both runesmith and abjurant champion is that the AC bonus from armor dosen't stack with your enhanced mage armor. You dont really gain all that much AC from it.

Also with a caster level of 4 by level 10 you couldnt really call this a gish build... most gish builds you come across focus on getting 9th level spells...
The levels of paladin, ranger and Deepwarden dont add all that much either...

Decide what you want to do, trying to tank and cast is going to end badly:
If you want to gish I would try not to lose more than 3 caster levels.
If you want to tank try taking crusader levels rather than wizard levels.

axleleft

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Re: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2011, 02:44:58 PM »
Sorry, my bad, should have been more careful with word choice. I guess gish is not technically correct. I suppose more like melee fighter with some minor spell enhancements as I'm not aiming for 8th or 9th level spells but 4th (hence Int 14). 4th ed analogy would be fighter or paladin with multiclass feats in swordmage, I think.

Honestly, crusader would be the optimal choice, I just really like the idea of runecasting. I'm looking to optimize its usage.

Mage armor and greater mage armor don't benefit from Abjurant Champion (conjuration  :shakefist , and worst errata in history "Oh, yeah, we mentioned mage armor in the class ability description but instead of making that the one exception that works with the ability we'll just say strike that mention of it). That's why I included Runesmith (and 'cause it's cool, natch), so I could cast in normal armor and not have to worry about trying to get Luminous Armor (as far as I know the only abjuration spell tree that actually gives an armor bonus). The mithril fullplate allows for +3 max Dex/Con bonus,so 16 Con is good for that. The dwarf variant sounds like a good idea, would Dream Dwarf be best or is there another?

To use Runesmith with Sorc would require taking Arcane Preparation and Scribe Scroll as feats. I guess the other way to go would be damage mitigation instead of just straight up AC and not go for Deepwarden (the first level is crud anyway). Or just have a Dex 16 Dwarf  :twitch .
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 02:49:08 PM by axleleft »

ninjarabbit

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Re: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2011, 03:13:32 PM »
You might be better off going duskblade

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2011, 04:20:37 PM »
It doesn't matter if you "only" grab 4th level spells. If you play a character that buffs to fight or uses it for battlefield control while he smashes faces or whatever, he's a gish.

Also, you could take psychic warrior or psion/ghostbreaker/slayer/anarchic initiate and use crawling tattoos to represent animated runes that affect allies and enemies (and yourself).
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Re: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2011, 06:22:45 PM »
Honestly, crusader would be the optimal choice, I just really like the idea of runecasting. I'm looking to optimize its usage.
Optimized runesmiths are much more caster-oriented.  It's a half-BAB class for a reason.  An example build at this level would look like...

Crusader 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 4/[Full-Caster 10]/Runesmith +1

With that Crusader 1 level either coming before the Wizard levels or after them, depending on whether you want more maneuvers or HP and skill points, and that last level of Runesmith coming as soon as you pick out a spell to make into a permanent rune.

To use Runesmith with Sorc would require taking Arcane Preparation and Scribe Scroll as feats. I guess the other way to go would be damage mitigation instead of just straight up AC and not go for Deepwarden (the first level is crud anyway). Or just have a Dex 16 Dwarf  :twitch .
Abjurant Champions don't run with Runesmith levels.  There's no real compliment there.

Also note that there are a couple of Item Creation feats that you should probably look into: Inscribe Rune and Craft Rune Circle.  Inscribe Rune is a dramatically accelerated method of item creation useful for making impromptu traps or potion-like items, but it's true usefulness comes from levels in the Runecaster PrC (PGtF).  It's expensive, so you should supplement it with cost reducers.  Craft Rune Circle, on the other hand, is ridiculously cheap, and invaluable for any adventurer with a base of operations they can return to.  Costs are reduced by 75% automatically for that feat, given that it only makes immobile items, but otherwise can do pretty much anything you'd want a wondrous item to do.

Another PrC worth taking note of is Geometer.  Glyph of Warding and Greater Glyph of Warding basically duplicate the effects of the Inscribe Rune feat with certain limitations, and Geometer adds those spells to the Sor/Wiz spell list.

Littha

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Re: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2011, 11:11:31 PM »
You have a caster level of 4, you have 2nd level spells not 4th.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2011, 11:13:09 PM »
Let me hunt it down, but the Colossus of War is about as dwarven gish as it gets.

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Unbeliever

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Re: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2011, 03:11:54 PM »
The Colossus of War is indeed pretty awesome.  Do people have any general ideas as to how to optimize Runesmith?  I've also always found it to be an intriguing class, but don't have any real ideas w/ it further than "wear some heavy armor b/c it looks cool."  Assume that I can file off the racial requirements, if desired. 

Thanks.

Dawnmor

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Re: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2011, 08:09:52 PM »
Dwarf Crusader 1, Wizard 3, Runesmith 1, JPM 10, Abj Champ 5.  Grab a shield, grab a axe or sword and your set.  I have yet to play this character in a game so go ahead and use it.

dark_samuari

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Re: Help optimizing Dwarf gish tank
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2011, 10:22:03 PM »
Dwarf Crusader 1, Wizard 3, Runesmith 1, JPM 10, Abj Champ 5.  Grab a shield, grab a axe or sword and your set.  I have yet to play this character in a game so go ahead and use it.


Perhaps we could rework that standard build into something like this: Desert Dwarf Wizard 4/Crusader 1/Runesmith 1/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8/Abjurant Champion 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 2.

You'll pick up a BaB of 17, CL of 17 and an IL of 15.5
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 05:28:56 PM by dark_samuari »