Author Topic: Spell Storing Hypodermics  (Read 12525 times)

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Bastian

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2011, 06:39:02 PM »
I was referring to whether or not you should take into account how other people play when considering what the rules mean.

Well, it's nice that you think the op shouldn't take that into account, but he obviously doesn't agree since he asked.

The fact that you have degenerated to purposely taking my statements out of context is kind of sad.

You've done nothing but nitpick answers, the only context for your outburst is that you didn't like my answer.
I was answering the question as asked, the fact that you have a stick-up your ass is not important to me.

JaronK

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2011, 07:21:19 PM »
Dear lord, did you really just use the fact that Spell Storing repeatedly talks about just one weapon as evidence it doesn't work on ammunition?  Now you're REALLY reaching.  Virtually every enchantment ever talks about just one weapon.

Seriously, RAW here isn't even debatable.  Look at the MiC table.  See Spell Storing on there?  Yes you do.  See any restriction to melee only?  No you don't.  See Power Storing, the Psionic equivalent?  See how it's also melee or ranged?  You'd think if there was any intent to make Spell Storing melee only it would at SOME point be listed as melee only.

Now look back at the DMG.  See the Spell Storing description?  See anything restricting that to melee only?  No, not there either.  The only thing is a randomly found loot table in the DMG that doesn't let you randomly find Spell Storing arrows.  That's it.

Spacemonkey, get off your high horse and stop being insulting.  Just because you don't want to play that way doesn't mean it's not RAW.

For reference, all the rules you need are on MiC 285 and DMG 225.

JaronK

Kajhera

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2011, 07:42:55 PM »
*glances at MiC 285*

So ... spell storing isn't generated for melee here either, and none of the restrictions are actually about 'melee only'. There's 'melee and thrown only', however this is only applied to Morphing, specifically.

JaronK

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2011, 07:54:51 PM »
It is worth noting that Eager is explicitly Melee Only in the text, and the table does not reflect that.

JaronK

Kajhera

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2011, 09:17:03 PM »
So you can apply morphing to a shuriken (confusingly) but you can't conclude whether an enhancement is melee only or not based on that table.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2011, 11:59:59 PM »
It's ok. I'm still hung back up on how to randomly generate loot in arctic regions. Damn if Harpoons and such are not on a random generation table...
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spacemonkey555

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2011, 02:59:53 AM »
Seriously, RAW here isn't even debatable.  Look at the MiC table.  See Spell Storing on there?  Yes you do.  See any restriction to melee only?  No you don't.  See Power Storing, the Psionic equivalent?  See how it's also melee or ranged?  You'd think if there was any intent to make Spell Storing melee only it would at SOME point be listed as melee only.

Power storing is not spell storing. MIC continues the only on the melee list trend for spell storing, and does not otherwise instruct on it that I can see. The "text trumps tables" appeal only applies when the text directly contradicts the tables, imo, not when a conflation of 3 or 4 rules could be interpreted as contradicting the tables. One set of MIC tables isn't for random generation, it's a list of all the enhancements for that type of weapon.

Now look back at the DMG.  See the Spell Storing description?  See anything restricting that to melee only?  No, not there either.  The only thing is a randomly found loot table in the DMG that doesn't let you randomly find Spell Storing arrows.  That's it.

And the table in the MIC, which is not for random generation?

Spacemonkey, get off your high horse and stop being insulting.  Just because you don't want to play that way doesn't mean it's not RAW.

I'm only replying to Bastian in like tone. I know that any playstyle is valid, I'm not biased on behalf of my own. I just don't accept that there is any raw support for spell storing arrows.

For reference, all the rules you need are on MiC 285 and DMG 225.

JaronK

I disagree that the absence of a superscript on a table is definitive raw (especially when you're dismissing it as merely a random generation table and then appealing to it), though I think absence or inclusion on the table which is the list of ranged weapon enhancements  (not random generation, just a summary list, MIC p. 242) is definitive.

JaronK

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2011, 03:17:37 AM »
So you can apply morphing to a shuriken (confusingly) but you can't conclude whether an enhancement is melee only or not based on that table.

Text is what matters.  You can apply morphing because the text of morphing says it can be applied to any melee or thrown weapon... the table simply backs that up (if it didn't the text would still trump).  You can apply Power Storing and Spell Storing because the text says both can be applied to any weapon.  The table in MiC backs up both of those, while the table in DMG does not back up Spell Storing on ranged (but again, text trumps, and the table is just for randomly found stuff anyway).

Quote from: spacemonkey555[/quote
MIC continues the only on the melee list trend for spell storing, and does not otherwise instruct on it that I can see.

This is false.  MiC does not continue any "only on melee list trend for spell storing" as it lists spell storing as something that can be applied to any weapon on page 285 (though that's in a table, which is still trumped by the DMG text... which agrees with it of course).  Of course, it also says something else... as you note in a moment.  But only in tables.

Quote
And the table in the MIC, which is not for random generation?

Is still a table.  Text trumps table.  The text says Spell Storing goes on a weapon.  Especially when we've got two tables, one of which lists spell storing and one which does not, trying to claim tables trump text just isn't going to work.

Quote
I disagree that the absence of a superscript on a table is definitive raw (especially when you're dismissing it as merely a random generation table and then appealing to it), though I think absence or inclusion on the table which is the list of ranged weapon enhancements  (not random generation, just a summary list, MIC p. 242) is definitive.

You can't just decide arbitrarily which rules you want to follow and which you don't... there are specific rules for what to follow and what not to when rules contradict.  Text trumps table, so the text in the DMG trumps outright.  Furthermore, the Primary Source for magic items is in fact the DMG, so it trumps again.  What we have here is text in the primary source saying Spell Storing works on all weapons, a table in the primary source that says Spell Storing is only randomly found on melee weapons, a table in MiC saying Spell Storing is an enchantment for melee weapons, and a table in MiC saying Spell Storing is randomly found on any weapon.  One of those, by the rules, trumps all others (twice over, for being both text and primary source). 

JaronK

spacemonkey555

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2011, 03:56:54 AM »
You can't just decide arbitrarily which rules you want to follow and which you don't... there are specific rules for what to follow and what not to when rules contradict.  Text trumps table, so the text in the DMG trumps outright.  Furthermore, the Primary Source for magic items is in fact the DMG, so it trumps again.  What we have here is text in the primary source saying Spell Storing works on all weapons, a table in the primary source that says Spell Storing is only randomly found on melee weapons, a table in MiC saying Spell Storing is an enchantment for melee weapons, and a table in MiC saying Spell Storing is randomly found on any weapon.  One of those, by the rules, trumps all others (twice over, for being both text and primary source). 

JaronK

Your argument seems to be lack of reference to melee weapon in the dmg spellstoring weapon section automatically means "any weapon" and tables are irrelevant unless/until they agree with you. Lack of restriction is not the same as permission. The list of ranged enhancements is not a random generation table and it excludes spell storing. The only argument for and against comes down to tables, and the 2 tables in the MIC seem to disagree. I'll go with the one in the dmg since now you're counting random generation tables as relevant, and since it's the primary source, as you say. It excludes spellstoring.


JaronK

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2011, 05:12:18 AM »
Your argument seems to be lack of reference to melee weapon in the dmg spellstoring weapon section automatically means "any weapon" and tables are irrelevant unless/until they agree with you. Lack of restriction is not the same as permission. The list of ranged enhancements is not a random generation table and it excludes spell storing. The only argument for and against comes down to tables, and the 2 tables in the MIC seem to disagree. I'll go with the one in the dmg since now you're counting random generation tables as relevant, and since it's the primary source, as you say. It excludes spellstoring.

Let's look at the text of spell storing, shall we?

Quote
Spell Storing

A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.

Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus.

Now let's look at the text of something that's obviously available to all weapon types.

Quote

As you can see, it's the same general thing.  Now let's look at an enchantment that is only allowed on one type of weapon or another.

Quote
Seeking

Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability. The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. (The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby.)

Strong divination; CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, true seeing; Price +1 bonus.

Disruption

A weapon of disruption is the bane of all undead. Any undead creature struck in combat must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or be destroyed. A weapon of disruption must be a bludgeoning weapon. (If you roll this property randomly for a piercing or slashing weapon, reroll.)

Strong conjuration; CL 14th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, heal; Price +2 bonus.

...yeah, that's pretty darn clear.  See the difference?  The default case is that the enchantment applies to weapons in general, because these are enchantments for weapons.  You need a specific override to say otherwise, such as in the examples above.

JaronK

spacemonkey555

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2011, 05:45:26 AM »
And nowhere in the spell storing section does it say you can use it on any weapon. That is an assumed rule, which is fine but it's not "raw says I can put spell storing on ammo." A restriction on the use of one ability is not a permission by exemption when not copied onto another ability.

JaronK

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2011, 05:48:07 AM »
And nowhere in the spell storing section does it say you can use it on any weapon. That is an assumed rule, which is fine but it's not "raw says I can put spell storing on ammo." A restriction on the use of one ability is not a permission by exemption when not copied onto another ability.

Nowhere in the speed section does it say you can use it on any weapon.  That is an assumed rule, which is fine but it's not "raw says I can put speed on ammo." A restriction on the use of one ability is not a permission by exemption when not copied onto another ability.

Seriously though, the general rule is that you can put weapon enchantments on any weapon.  Were that not the case, you couldn't put most weapon enchantments on any weapon at all.

JaronK

Sobolev

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2011, 02:10:28 PM »
Quote from: Dungeon Master's Guide pg 223 below "Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions"
In addition to enhancement bonuses, weapons can have one or more of the special abilities detailed below.  A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

I think that pretty clearly states that WEAPONS can have one of the special abilities.  Arrows are weapons.  The only thing restricting it are abilities with specific restrictions.  The general rule is that they can have any of the following.  Coincidently, Spell Storing follows it, in it's proper alphabetic place with no such restriction.

I repeat JaronK (who has gotten a lot of hate for some reason lately, and I don't quite understand it).  Weapons can have abilities that don't say otherwise.  It doesn't say otherwise.  The table is for generating random treasure, not what can exist.  Even if it was, it's irrelevant, because text beats it.  The end.

I have had DMs disallow it because they didn't like the flavor of shooting people with Tiny +1 Spell Storing Arrows in order to heal them, but that was their decision, has nothing to do with the rules, and is largely irrelevant in a public forum since we can only work within the rules here and not do anything else.  The flavor and Rule 0's in place at your table are for your table.

That said if the OP really just wanted to know if people allow that or don't allow that, this thread really doesn't even belong in this forum.

Edit: In case it's not clear, the thing I quoted DOES actually say you can use it on any weapon, and the text in specific abilities is a case of specific beats general.
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veekie

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2011, 02:31:36 PM »
Also, it makes sense not to find significant amounts of spell storing ammo.  If they're charged with spells, then you'd be using them, and the arrow goes smash. Not everybody has the time to load up a whole set of 50 arrows with 3rd level spells you know.
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Cagemarrow

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2011, 12:12:26 PM »
Shuriken would be a better choice than arrows anyway, as thrown weapons they aren't destroyed upon use, but they are still enchanted as ammunition.

:)

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2011, 03:57:53 PM »
Text vs table is irrelevant here. Text is silent, table implies (but does not explicitly state) that you cannot put spell storing on ranged weapons. Not commenting on other arguments, because I don't think I have studied the rules in sufficient depth and I'm away from books at the moment. I definitely don't play the game in a way that allows spell storing shuriken, but that's not what we're fighting over at the moment.
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Bastian

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2011, 06:40:45 PM »
Text vs table is irrelevant here. Text is silent, table implies (but does not explicitly state) that you cannot put spell storing on ranged weapons. Not commenting on other arguments, because I don't think I have studied the rules in sufficient depth and I'm away from books at the moment. I definitely don't play the game in a way that allows spell storing shuriken, but that's not what we're fighting over at the moment.
Dude, if you are going to try to restart the argument at least read all the posts. This point has already been addressed several times.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2011, 06:54:41 PM »
For future reference only, can anyone point me to the FAQ entry, book and page/etc. where "text trumps table" is printed or stated?

I remember pretty much everyone and a half citing that rule, but I cannot for the life of me remember where it's written. Not disputing, mind you, it's just useful info to have.
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Bastian

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2011, 07:58:11 PM »
For future reference only, can anyone point me to the FAQ entry, book and page/etc. where "text trumps table" is printed or stated?

I remember pretty much everyone and a half citing that rule, but I cannot for the life of me remember where it's written. Not disputing, mind you, it's just useful info to have.
It's in the errata to one of the core books.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Spell Storing Hypodermics
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2011, 08:05:51 PM »
Gotcha.
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