Author Topic: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB  (Read 39672 times)

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JaronK

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #120 on: May 08, 2011, 07:09:31 PM »
You're forgeting one key intelegent item rules:

No intelligent item wants to share its wielder with others. An intelligent item is aware of the presence of any other intelligent item within 60 feet, and most intelligent items try their best to mislead or distract their host so that she ignores or destroys the rival.


So no, intelegent items are the last thing you'll ever see doing an harmonious hive mind. They're not devout slaves that lick their master's boots and play nice with each other all the time. They're proud beings, they like being on top, and and they will not share it with anyone or anything else.

Yes, now this is clearly correct.  Okay, so you only get one intelligent item no matter what (well, you can get a few, but only if you don't mind your gear always trying to destroy other parts of said gear, which would be hilarious to play but probably not so good for long term health).

Spacemonkey: do you acknowledge that your earlier position was incorrect (namely, what permanent magic items means)?  Because if you're going to run around yelling about how no one else understands the rules and you do, holding onto that looks pretty foolish.  You'll note that when someone actually quotes a rule (as above) that indicates something doesn't work, I'm fully ready to acknowledge it.  Again:

"Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent. (This means that potions, scrolls, and wands, among other items, are never intelligent.)"

That's clearly stating that the magic has to be one use or charged to be illegal... ammunition can be reusable (raptor arrows) and even regular ammo has a 50% chance of not being single use if it misses, and ammo does not have charges.

Which leaves us with only the question of whether the intelligent items get the ammo discount.  This is somewhat up in the air... we know that listed prices are actually the cost for 50 when talking about ammunition in general.  There is nothing that says "this only applies to weapon enchantments" but then again it doesn't say the opposite either, simply because I don't think anyone ever thought of it.  The only line we have is

"This price is for 50 arrows, crossbow bolts, or sling bullets."

But we also know that ammunition with special abilities that aren't enhancement bonus based (things that might otherwise cost +500 or something) do in fact get the 1/50th discount (since they're all so cheap), indicating that this is indeed the general rule.  So, it does seem likely that the 1/50th discount is supposed to work for all ammunition and for all properties that might go on ammunition (except the Raptor Arrow, which is FAR more expensive, but that's not surprising).

So what evidence do you have that ammunition is not supposed to get the 1/50th discount for all magic enchantment on it, including Intelligent Items? 

JaronK

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #121 on: May 08, 2011, 08:27:19 PM »
Stick a wand chamber in that so you can put a wand of nerveskitter in your shuriken.
So...this?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I know that'd get on MY nerves pretty damned quick.

I am -so- glad I'm not the only one who thought that exact thing, though at 4:30 in the morning I was in no shape to go looking up fairy wands.
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JaronK

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #122 on: May 08, 2011, 08:37:31 PM »
I was going to say something about wand chambers not fitting on Shuriken, but that picture proved me wrong instantly.

But now that I've realized that true optimization requires running around in D&D with a star wand, I'm much happier.

JaronK

nijineko

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #123 on: May 08, 2011, 09:35:07 PM »
want the fairy wings to go with it?

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #124 on: May 08, 2011, 09:57:38 PM »
Unseelie Fey for +0 LA.

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spacemonkey555

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #125 on: May 09, 2011, 03:33:30 AM »
Spacemonkey: do you acknowledge that your earlier position was incorrect (namely, what permanent magic items means)?  Because if you're going to run around yelling about how no one else understands the rules and you do, holding onto that looks pretty foolish.  You'll note that when someone actually quotes a rule (as above) that indicates something doesn't work, I'm fully ready to acknowledge it.  Again:

"Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent. (This means that potions, scrolls, and wands, among other items, are never intelligent.)"

That's clearly stating that the magic has to be one use or charged to be illegal... ammunition can be reusable (raptor arrows) and even regular ammo has a 50% chance of not being single use if it misses, and ammo does not have charges.

The fact that you can retry a fail doesn't mean you get more than one discharge of the power. The enhancement bonus is reused on a miss though, right? Only until a single successful use. That's one charge to me. Raptor arrows are not priced as 1/50th of a bane returning +1 arrow, they're priced as a +1 returning bane reusable item with relic and alignment discounts. Specific case, and nothing would stop you from enchanting a raptor arrow with intelligence that I can think of off the top of my head.


Which leaves us with only the question of whether the intelligent items get the ammo discount.  This is somewhat up in the air... we know that listed prices are actually the cost for 50 when talking about ammunition in general.  There is nothing that says "this only applies to weapon enchantments" but then again it doesn't say the opposite either, simply because I don't think anyone ever thought of it.  The only line we have is

"This price is for 50 arrows, crossbow bolts, or sling bullets."

But we also know that ammunition with special abilities that aren't enhancement bonus based (things that might otherwise cost +500 or something) do in fact get the 1/50th discount (since they're all so cheap), indicating that this is indeed the general rule.  So, it does seem likely that the 1/50th discount is supposed to work for all ammunition and for all properties that might go on ammunition (except the Raptor Arrow, which is FAR more expensive, but that's not surprising).

So what evidence do you have that ammunition is not supposed to get the 1/50th discount for all magic enchantment on it, including Intelligent Items? 

JaronK

You're using a rule based on the fact that an item is expendable and applying it to an item you claim is not expendable. That's fine, but you're ignoring rules to do so, which makes it not raw.

p. 122 phb
Quote
Masterwork ammunition is damaged (effectively destroyed)
when used.

Single use, that's why you get a discount, and that's why it can't be intelligent. Applies to melee as well as projectile use. You use it, it is gone, just like a potion. The "after thrown" shuriken clause just means as long as you don't expend it it sticks around, just like a potion sticks around till you drink it.

zook1shoe

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #126 on: May 09, 2011, 03:49:55 AM »
Spacemonkey555, how would you fight the fact that ammo is NOT destroyed 50% of the time with a miss? Whereas wands and such, still expend a charge on touch spells whether of not you hit?

Does that mean they're both expendable and non-expendable, since it is determined by whether or not you hit with it?

spacemonkey555

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #127 on: May 09, 2011, 04:08:22 AM »
Spacemonkey555, how would you fight the fact that ammo is NOT destroyed 50% of the time with a miss? Whereas wands and such, still expend a charge on touch spells whether of not you hit?

Does that mean they're both expendable and non-expendable, since it is determined by whether or not you hit with it?

I guess I wasn't clear. A miss is not a successful use, of the arrow or the magic in the arrow. The intent of the author is obvious, and I think he was successful in terms of "raw" as well. Twisted logic aside, if you can expend an item, it can be considered expendable. If you cannot expend an item, it is not expendable. Can you expend an arrow? Every ammunition rule section in the phb, dmg, and mic establishes that they are expendable. Even if they had 50 successful uses before being expended.. they would still be expendable. The fact that you can fail with an arrow does not let you snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, the arrow is still lying on the ground over there waiting to be expended when it finally hits something.

JaronK

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #128 on: May 09, 2011, 04:47:55 AM »
Let's be clear, the rule doesn't say "expendable item."  It says you can't use it on something which is single use or has charges... it says nothing about successful uses.  A +1 Arrow can be used multiple times, and the +1 bonus will apply every time, though obviously after it hits (and breaks) it won't be used anymore.  But that's not the same as single use, nor does it have charges.  Those are the only options.  +1 is in fact a permanent enchantment... it's just the item it's on breaks.  Furthermore, this thread is specifically talking about items which can indeed be used "successfully" multiple times, and which are never going to break... a Fiercebane Shuriken will successfully glow to warn of impending danger every single time and never stop doing so.  Clearly, that item is neither one use nor charged.  A Luckshuriken will give its luck bonus to saves while possessed forever.  That item is neither one use nor charged either.

You can tell when you're wrong the moment you start talking about how "the intent of the author is obvious."  Notice how the rules are what we're quoting here, not the intent.  The question is not "what do I think the author meant."  The question is "does a Shuriken of Balance that gives +5 to balance while held have charges, or is it single use?"  If neither of those are the case, it can be made intelligent.  Just because you could chose to do something stupid like throw the thing and break it doesn't make it single use... I could turn a morphing Kukri into a Shuriken, throw it, and cause it to break if I wanted.  That doesn't mean I can't make an Intelligent +1 Morphing Kukri.  I could simply throw my Cloak of Charisma into a lava pit, but that doesn't prevent me from making it intelligent either.

The simple fact is that intelligent items cannot be on things with enchantments that run out of uses.  It is the magic we're looking at, not the physical item itself.

JaronK

spacemonkey555

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #129 on: May 09, 2011, 05:13:13 AM »
I think I am being clear, you can't make a single use item intelligent. If successfully used as intended, an arrow is single-use. You can keep trying till you succeed, but you only get one success. The fact that you can keep it in the quiver forever is irrelevant to me, as is the fact that mere possession might entail other benefits. You're applying a transitive property to enable ammo to be multiple use with respect to intelligence, but it still isn't a multiple use arrow, imo.

JaronK

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #130 on: May 09, 2011, 05:23:55 AM »
I think I am being clear, you can't make a single use item intelligent.

That is not quite the rule. You're being quite clear... but what you're clear about is what you think the rule ought to say.  Here's what it actually says:

Quote
Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent. (This means that potions, scrolls, and wands, among other items, are never intelligent.)

So "permanent" here means "not single-use items or those with charges" and then we get nice examples that show only items that have a set limited number of uses.  Notice how "ammunition" is not on that list.  Notice furthermore that it is impossible to use any of those items in such a way that it's used at all without wasting a charge or using up the item entirely... as opposed to a Shuriken of Balancing, which can be used to boost your balance skill without doing so.

Quote
If successfully used as intended, an arrow is single-use.

Again, intent is never the point.  Furthermore, I'm pretty sure using a Shuriken of Balancing to boost your balance skill is exactly what that's intended to do... because you're creating the item with that exact intent (here we're talking item creator intent, not game designer intent).  Also, note that "successfully used" is not found in the rules at all, so you're now adding definitions which do not exist in the rules.  That makes your interpretation incorrect.

The fact that you're basing your argument on the "successfully used" principle which is of your own creation, as well as on designer intent, should indicate your argument is not RAW.  I am saying that a held Defending +5 Shuriken that I keep in my offhand for +5 AC is clearly not a one use item. 

Not only that, but note that one of the example Intelligent Items in the DMG is a Luck Blade (page 272).  The Luck Blade has three uses of Wish which could be thought of as charges... and yet it can be Intelligent.  Why?  Because it has a permanent effect, namely the Luck Blade's Luck Bonus and +2 Enhancement.  How is that different than a +5 Defending Shuriken that has a permanent effect (+5 AC) but could also be destroyed?

JaronK

spacemonkey555

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #131 on: May 09, 2011, 06:10:48 AM »
Not only that, but note that one of the example Intelligent Items in the DMG is a Luck Blade (page 272).  The Luck Blade has three uses of Wish which could be thought of as charges... and yet it can be Intelligent.  Why?  Because it has a permanent effect, namely the Luck Blade's Luck Bonus and +2 Enhancement.  How is that different than a +5 Defending Shuriken that has a permanent effect (+5 AC) but could also be destroyed?

JaronK

Could also be destroyed is obviously not the same as destroyed when activated. The luck blade is an absurd example, it is obviously a reusable weapon that is still magic after an ancillary effect is fully discharged.

I'm thinking this circular argument will never have a conclusion, there isn't anything we are agreeing on. You're here to bend the rules until they're broken to your satisfaction, I'm not here to defend them. Play it as you please.

JaronK

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #132 on: May 09, 2011, 06:38:30 AM »
Could also be destroyed is obviously not the same as destroyed when activated. The luck blade is an absurd example, it is obviously a reusable weapon that is still magic after an ancillary effect is fully discharged.

Is a +5 Defending Shuriken destroyed when activated?  Don't use words like "successful use" that don't exist in the rules.  Can you use the item without destroying it as many times as you like?

Is it reusable without taking up charges?

Answer those as a yes or no, and you'll perhaps get the point.

JaronK

Felix Underwood

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #133 on: May 09, 2011, 11:08:25 AM »
I'm too lazy atm to look further back... has anyone suggested intelligent raptor arrows yet?

zook1shoe

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #134 on: May 09, 2011, 12:18:47 PM »
yup, in Reply #125

JaronK

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2011, 02:17:16 PM »
I'm too lazy atm to look further back... has anyone suggested intelligent raptor arrows yet?

Note that raptor arrows seem to not be priced as ammunition, so that may not work.  Of course, they're not explicitly priced as normal weapons either... they just seem to be priced that way.

JaronK

nijineko

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #136 on: May 10, 2011, 12:10:55 AM »
Unseelie Fey for +0 LA.

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #137 on: May 27, 2011, 05:17:17 PM »
necro ... but the topic  :)


Expert class, can't do this at level 1 without taking the -4 proficiency penalty.
They can at level 3 with the Exotic Weapon feat.
Oddly, an Adept with the Forlorn "flaw" ACF, can do it at level 2.

So Monks are better than Experts early on ... I concede.
Still prefer the Expert's skills later, but that may not be enough,
in light of this trick.


PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #138 on: May 27, 2011, 09:26:35 PM »
 :hide
Bastian I was asking how intelligent items "stack up" with the 1/50th discount. ie: if an awakened intelligent counts as a flat +x gold enhancement similar to the mobility armor enhancement or not. I know that the mobility armor enhancement is an enhancement (and there qualifies for our discount) because it says it is. The burden of proof (again, for our purposes) is the rules explicitly saying so. The 10 commandments of optimization rule out the "well the rules don't say I can't!" justification, hence my inquiry.

At first I thought spacemonkey was trolling all of us. However the quote without the parenthetical aside reads: "Only permanent magic items can be intelligent. [It just so happens that] potions, scrolls, and wands, among other items, are never intelligent." It might be stupid, and clearly against RAI (as I hope we understand the whole +5 lucky defending melee shruken thing is), but it seems a valid (if jarring) interpretation of RAW that amunition can't be intelligent.
 :hide
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JaronK

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Re: That Overpowered Exotic Weapon from the PHB
« Reply #139 on: May 27, 2011, 10:02:36 PM »
The thing that I think is the biggest counter to that claim is that one of the example intelligent items is in fact a luck blade.  That's an item that can indeed run out of charges (the wishes) but it's still intelligent, because it also has permanent effects (the luck bonuses and such) in addition to the temporary effects (wishes).  So as long as the item has some permanent magical effect, it's fine as an intelligent thing... only items that are completely expendable are excluded.  A "Permanent magic item," then, is any item where at least some magical part of it can be used indefinitely without using the magic up.  Since this entire thread is about ammunition that's permanent and doesn't need to be thrown, it seems to me that it counts just fine.  It's pretty hard to exclude such ammunition without accidentally excluding the Luck Blade as well, and any interpretation that says the Luck Blade isn't valid for intelligence must be wrong.

JaronK