Author Topic: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?  (Read 67758 times)

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Tshern

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #320 on: May 04, 2011, 10:36:01 AM »
No, because the feats suck.

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veekie

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #321 on: May 04, 2011, 12:23:29 PM »
Yeah, even giving them 2 feats per level wouldn't change much, except you'd see a lot more and shallower dips.
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lans

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #322 on: May 04, 2011, 02:51:37 PM »
Yeah, even giving them 2 feats per level wouldn't change much, except you'd see a lot more and shallower dips.

I think I was more in the 3 digit area. Figure some feats are awesome, and this will force him to take those feats by shear force.

For example boomerang daze, and martial study/stance, and the one that lets you know that that begger has 153hp
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 02:55:37 PM by lans »
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JaronK

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #323 on: May 04, 2011, 06:49:54 PM »
Unless you give them much later, that just makes them even more of a dip class.

If it happened later, expect to see Barbarian 1/Fighter X a lot... you'd be an awesome charger and archer (since the feats related to those are great and there's a LOT of archery ones) and possibly decent at tripping.  It doesn't help out of combat utility, but it should make you very solid in combat, so that's at least T4.

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veekie

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #324 on: May 04, 2011, 07:03:53 PM »
Yeah, the more feats you're granting per level, the fewer levels of Fighter they need to take. Most builds would be manageable within 10 feats covering their core concepts. By the time they hit 14 feats they're just grabbing random crap they like the look of anyway.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #325 on: May 04, 2011, 07:12:19 PM »
Maybe make it so the fighter gets number of feats = fighter level? 1 on 1st level, 2 on 2nd level, etc.
Lol. Stupid idea. 20 feats on one level...
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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #326 on: May 04, 2011, 07:24:44 PM »
210 Feats by level 20?

Though it does make me feel happy. Now Fighters are exponential, too!
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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #327 on: May 04, 2011, 07:29:00 PM »
As much as i love you guys, and as much as i know you know more about this than i, i can't help feeling that some of these ideas are too complicated.

What we want are as few changes as possible, and of course we would not want to change the balance of the other classes (as with the fighter dip consideration), but i think the best idea will be one or two simple ideas. With the rogue, as good as all the other stuff is it's still only a few class features that define it. 

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #328 on: May 04, 2011, 07:35:06 PM »
210 Feats by level 20?

Though it does make me feel happy. Now Fighters are exponential, too!

Fighters would be forced to dip just to use the feats. Imagine a 1st level wizard with every metamagic feat, Cleric/etc. . . zoooooooooom!
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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #329 on: May 04, 2011, 07:37:27 PM »
Guys look. There is NO FUCKING WAY. that increasing amount of Feat will increase Tier of the Fighter. Feats are to weak for that. Increasing his Skills and skill points well don't solve the problem either.

The best way is Reducing amount of Feats and give instead a Unique class abilities... I don't know, you ignore ideas of Extraordinary so maybe some Combat Style, Fighting technique, Orders? Battle Cry? Auras? Some sort of mystical war mediation?
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AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #330 on: May 04, 2011, 07:46:03 PM »
Gestalt together Fighter, Monk, Swashbuckler and Paladin? Maybe throw CW Samurai to the mix?

To expand on my earlier idea:
Fighter gets a number of bonus feats equal to half his fighter level, rounding up. So 1 on 1st, 1 on 2nd, 2 on 3rd, 2 on 4th, 3 on 5th, etc.

Guys look. There is NO FUCKING WAY. that increasing amount of Feat will increase Tier of the Fighter. Feats are to weak for that. Increasing his Skills and skill points well don't solve the problem either.

The best way is Reducing amount of Feats and give instead a Unique class abilities... I don't know, you ignore ideas of Extraordinary so maybe some Combat Style, Fighting technique, Orders? Battle Cry? Auras? Some sort of mystical war mediation?
But that won't be a Fighter anymore. You can take Warblade or Crusader for that.
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #331 on: May 04, 2011, 07:49:05 PM »
I'd like to chat about this 'class ability (i made up). I'm not good enough to really tell if it's lame or over powered. I'd really appreciate an analysis by some real sharp gameologist.


Would a fighter losing a Stare Down suffer consequences? or is he just too tough?

PS: I'll take this question somewhere else if y'all want.
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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #332 on: May 04, 2011, 08:51:17 PM »

 :love ... i can't help feeling that some of these ideas are too complicated.

What we want are as few changes as possible,

and of course we would not want to change the balance of the other classes (as with the fighter dip consideration),

but i think the best idea will be one or two simple ideas.


Right, basically the definition of applied Occam's Razor.

Fighter only functions as Generic Warrior so long as *** happens.
Fighter (Generic Warrior) can take Epic Feats at or above level 8.
Fighter still needs some fancy screwy shtuff, that competes with 7s 8s and 9s.

{ ... insert yes I did just say Epic Feats are weaker than 7th level spells smiley face ... }

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #333 on: May 04, 2011, 09:03:36 PM »
Guys look. There is NO FUCKING WAY. that increasing amount of Feat will increase Tier of the Fighter. Feats are to weak for that. Increasing his Skills and skill points well don't solve the problem either.

Yes, it does. It might not get him to tier 3, but it without a doubt gets him to a high tier 4.
Quote
The best way is Reducing amount of Feats and give instead a Unique class abilities... I don't know, you ignore ideas of Extraordinary so maybe some Combat Style, Fighting technique, Orders? Battle Cry? Auras? Some sort of mystical war mediation?

Theirs a feat for that. Nobody takes them because those abilities suck compared to shock trooper, boomerang daze, imperious command, and teleport/summonmonster/confursion
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veekie

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #334 on: May 04, 2011, 09:31:55 PM »
Quote
{ ... insert yes I did just say Epic Feats are weaker than 7th level spells smiley face ... }
Well they are.
Except Epic Spellcasting.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

lans

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #335 on: May 04, 2011, 09:57:12 PM »
Quote
{ ... insert yes I did just say Epic Feats are weaker than 7th level spells smiley face ... }
Well they are
Except Epic Spellcasting.
And open Soul Chakra.
And Martial Study. Heal is 7th level on druids list
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veekie

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #336 on: May 04, 2011, 11:19:13 PM »
Martial Study is nice and all, but without a recovery mechanism, it's good mostly for 1/encounter solutions, rather than practical mainstays.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

lans

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #337 on: May 04, 2011, 11:23:40 PM »
Martial Study is nice and all, but without a recovery mechanism, it's good mostly for 1/encounter solutions, rather than practical mainstays.
A spell is often 1/day so I'm not sure what your point is.
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veekie

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #338 on: May 05, 2011, 12:10:21 AM »
Depends on which maneuvers you picked, if you went for IHS, Shadow Jump/Blink./Hop/whatever or one of the Moment of <foo>, you're good, those probably only turn up once per encounter. If you're going for a strike or boost you'd need more mileage than that.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

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Re: What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?
« Reply #339 on: May 05, 2011, 01:11:55 AM »
OK, here goes my Inspiration Point for the day.

Why the Fighter is Tier 5
  • Lack of Unique Class Features: The main draws of the Fighter class are bonus feats, Base Attack Bonus, armor and weapon proficiencies, and a d10 HD. It's "class features" all draw upon a common pool of rules: Full Attack, Charge, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, Use Skills, Move, Attack, Activate a Magic Item. Every other class in the entire game is capable of utilizing those rules.
  • Item Dependency: Caused by the Fighter's lack of class features, a Fighter must use magic items to shore up it's weaknesses (Note: Every class is guilty of this to some extent). Without these items, a Fighter is at a horrible disadvantage. However, a Fighter is stuck on the Wealth By Level guideline: They have no reliable means of bypassing that reliance on the WBL (Crafting using the Craft skill is too slow, as is the Profession skill). Furthermore, the magic items a fighter needs consume a huge amount of an individual character's WBL (Magic Weapons are the only items in all DnD capable of hitting 200KGP without using the Custom Magic Item rules).
  • Multiple Atribute Dependency: Fighters need Con for HP, Str for Damage, Dex for AC, and a varying amount of Int/Wis/Cha depending on feat selection. Attempting to make a Dex-focused Fighter means you will lag behind in damage output, as you have no class features that support the option (worse: Many feats that make use of Weapon Finesse have class feature requirements).
  • Build Identity Crisis: Every Lockdown Chain Tripper has the exact same feat list. Every Charger has the exact same feat list. Every Archer has the exact same feat list. It gets repetitive very quickly. Furthermore, some builds are highly impractical. Because of these builds, attempting to deviate from the established norm will result in a large liability for your party if you ignore the basics of your style. A Charger who does not have Shock Trooper will be horribly incapable, a Lockdown Chain Tripper who doesn't have Stand Still will not be able to establish his lockdown, and so forth.
  • Stagnate Combat Options: As stated above, the only actions a Fighter can take during a combat encounter are: Full Attack, Charge, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, Use Skills, Move, Attack, Activate a Magic Item. Using Martial Study to gain additional actions results in you feeling inferior to the Warblade, who can do everything you can, while having a wider arsenal of combat options.
  • Lack of Out-Of-Combat Flexibility: How do Fighters check for traps? Walking into them. How do Fighters keep watch? Hoping CC ranks in Spot/Listen will actually amount to anything (which it won't, as you lack the Skill Points due to MAD). How do Fighters gather information on a crime lord? They don't without CC ranks, and even then, the rest of the party is better at it. These are but a few of the OOC issues a Fighter faces. Note: Every one of these issues can be addressed by Role Playing or via Magic Items, however doing so is not a part of the Fighter class.
  • Poor Quality Feat Choices: Take a look at the Fighter's Bonus Feat choices. How many of them are actually useful?
  • Action Economy: Because the Fighter was printed in the PHB, it was unable to utilize the Swift and Immediate actions. Feats that came post-XPH attempted to correct this issue, but it wasn't enough (very few of those feats are actually useable). In addition, Magic Items that made use of the Swift/Immediate actions were often limited in uses/day, and many of those items were poorly priced/underpowered.


I think I covered everything that was in the original post (still wish I could find it).


A Fighter revamp must address these issues, or else the class will remain in Tier 5. Numerical increases are not the answer. (Just so anyone reading this doesn't make that assumption).


[spoiler][/spoiler]