What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?

[KellKheraptis]

Here I was seeing a visit to the Black Ethergaunt retirement home...

[Prime32]

Needs an "each spell counts as one ability" clause obviously.

EDIT: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11800

EDIT2: If he copies a sarrukh, send a paladin after him.

[Tshern]

Needs an "each spell counts as one ability" clause obviously.

I would spend a few abilities slots for Shapechange and Time stop. I definitely would. To me the ability is a step in the right direction, but obviously needs some fine-tuning. I'll try to think it and offer you some help with that. Unless I am reading it wrong a Fighter with that ability could, for example, mimic his party's Red Wizard's Circle magic and help him out with it...

[Bortasz]

Hit Die 10
Skill Points 4+Inteligence
Class skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str) and 5 more skill chosen by player
(That will increase flexibility of Fighters)

BAB: Full
Save: Good Fort

Proficient in all weapons, Armours and shield.

extra Feats: as normal Fighter

Weapon Aptitude. as Warblade. Chosen weapon feats example: Specialization and Weapon focus can be changed to another weapon for 1 hour training per feat.
(more Flexibility from Sword and Shield to Two handed axe, from Bow to Crossbow)

Extra Abilities

Combat:

Fast Healing:
Fighter for the 1 rounds * Fighter lvl will heal himself in rate 4 per round.
Fighter can turn of, on this ability at will, until he use all of his rounds per day.

Extraordinary Speed
Fighter can use haste as Extraordinary Ability for 1 round per Fighter lvl.
Fighter can turn of, on this ability at will, until he use all of his rounds per day.

Group Extraordinary Speed
All fighters ally in 30 feet range can share with him Extraordinary speed.

Group Fast Healing
All fighters ally in 30 feet range can share with him Fast healing ability but get only half his benefits.

Thief of Death golden Teeth
Fighter add +3 bonus to all save test that protect him from Death effects.

Out of combat:
I have no fucking idea   
What special abilities give to fighter that will be useful out of combat? I think something about quasi leadership bonuses... Team Work, Instructor,
Skills like UMD, Heal, Survival will help him be useful out of combat...
I think that flexibility of Fighter should be improve.

And pleas. Give so examples in mechanic not only talking.

[Sinfire Titan]

Can we keep the homebrew in the homebrew forum? This is supposed to be a discussion thread, not a brainstorming thread.

[JaronK]

Hey, Let Me Try That (Ex): If a fighter succeeds on a Spellcraft check to identify a special attack, he gains the ability to use it himself. Extraordinary abilities can be used normally. In the case of spell-like and supernatural abilities he must pay power points equal to the level at which the special attack was gained by the subject (or the subject's CR in the case of racial abilities). The save DC is based on his own HD and statistics rather than the subject's, and size-based attacks affect targets of the same size relative to the fighter (eg. a Colossal subject with an attack which affects Gargantuan and smaller creatures would grant a Medium fighter the ability to affect Small and smaller creatures). The fighter may permanently retain a number of special attacks equal to his Int modifier, and forgets excess abilities after one minute. A fighter may not copy special attacks from creatures with CRs higher than his fighter level, or those relying on anatomy he does not possess.

...you just gave him Wizard spellcasting.  In fact, you just gave him the spellcasting of [Int mod] classes.  Instantly top of Tier 1. 

This is the polymorph trap... if you give an ability this open ended, it's very possible to miss that somewhere out there is an ability you didn't realize was, in this case, an Ex Special Attack (Polymorph has the exact same issue).  By the way, "Maneuvers" of a martial adept class are also an Ex Special Attack, and the "Bonus Feats" of a Fighter are definitely an Ex Special Ability... probably an Ex Special Attack.

This is why we don't write abilities like this!

JaronK

[Kajhera]

Can we keep the homebrew in the homebrew forum? This is supposed to be a discussion thread, not a brainstorming thread.

I'm trying to think of how to make the fighter tier 3 without homebrew, and, um... All I can really think of is taking feats that place you over your tier.  These typically aren't fighter bonus feats.

[lans]

@ Ians;

15/15/12 is meh.  Saving throws in general are meh. There are too many things with 'fuck you' save DCs like DC 42 fort save at CR 12 or DC 27 will save at CR 8.  The fighter needs good saving throws but he also needs other options from his class abilities, like rerolls, full cover as an immediate action, being able to take hit point damage or go prone instead of taking the effect of the failed save, and possibly even a per day/per encounter 'no, fuck you' class ability for failed saves.

The save boost is just a starting point. I'm fine with him being stunned for a round, and I think the problem might be with the abilities you mentioned. We don't say a sorcerer sucks because he has 0% chance against an equal CR opponent with same optimization.
 

That 'huge bonus' that you're worrying about is 50% better than basic magic weapon bonuses.  And guess what!  Fighters DO struggle to hit things at higher levels without stupid amounts of focused magical gear/bullshit like wand-chambered wands of wraithstrike and UMD/emerald razor.  It's a nice way to add a bit of hit and damage, absolve fighters from having to buy stupidly expensive magic weapons, it fits well with fighter flavour, and people are unlikely to go OMG THAT'S OVERPOWERED because it fits fighter fluff and doesn't look overly powerful.

From my experience fighters don't have a problem hitting, so bigger numbers won't fix the issues.

Combining the basic bonuses a fighter should just HAVE with a weapon style sounds utterly fucking stupid.  Also, your 'unarmed' style is actually the 'grappling' style, as it does not help pugilist fighters at all ever in any way.

I don't think the fighters should just have the bonus, your right about the unarmed style being a little more grappling centric.

Your light weapon style gives, at level 5, what the hit and run fighter gives at level 1 and the shadow blade gives at level 1.  In fact, I played a Frog Knight Hit And Run Fighter at level 1, with three feats, martial study, martial stance, and shadow blade.  He was a tiny fey who used a feycraft lance from frogback to stab flat-footed people for double his dex to damage at level 1.  So uh.  Fail.  Think bigger.

I was having the ability start at level 5, and I don't think what you posted works.

At level 8 he needs to be able to not get dazed by a DC 25 dazing blow.  The 'quintessential' fighter save is fort.  He would have, under your system, +6 base fort.  He has massive MAD, cause he's a fighter, so he has 14 Con.  He also has a +1 vest of resistance.  Altogether, that gives him +9.  Most optimized basic fighter 20s will not have better than that.  He has to roll a 16 or better to succeed.  He gets hit multiple times, because I doubt you've given him a better AC even by accident because your idea of a good level 5 ability for a fighter is dex to damage.  He is going to fail that save, and lose his next turn.

Sometimes you fail a save, and its not the end of the world.

Congratulations.  The fighter is now a well of dazed hitpoints whose job is to stand there and hope the monster keeps hitting him and that his friends can wipe it out before his hitpoints run out.  Or, as I like to put it, T5.

Unless you think the Barbarian is also T5, your as  wrong as my spelling of you're.

Why?  That's shitty design.  Either the buffs will be amazing and push him off the RNG, or he'll need them in order to keep up, and HAVE to use his swift actions each round to keep his attacks or saves or whatever meaningful.  Sounds like a crappy system to me, unless you mean to use it like 'either use my immediate to do <X SPECIAL THING>, or wait til next round and use my swift to make myself basically immune to will saves for a round, decisions decisions' kind of thing, and even that's kind of lame and shit.

I was thinking of making it just a small bonus, with the option of 'stunting', to do things like kicking over a table to block a wizards line of effect to effectively disrupt his spell.

Note that for all the talk of chassis improvement. Chassis doesn't matter for tier determination, it just adjusts your placement WITHIN a tier. The wizard has pretty much the worst chassis after all.

Thats wrong, other wise experts wouldn't be tier 5.

[Takanaki]

I know that it may take this too far from the realms of 'Fighter' ... but...

How about a ToB-ish Chameleon? Too much book keeping?

[Sinfire Titan]

...you just gave him Wizard spellcasting.  In fact, you just gave him the spellcasting of [Int mod] classes.  Instantly top of Tier 1.  

This is the polymorph trap... if you give an ability this open ended, it's very possible to miss that somewhere out there is an ability you didn't realize was, in this case, an Ex Special Attack (Polymorph has the exact same issue).  By the way, "Maneuvers" of a martial adept class are also an Ex Special Attack, and the "Bonus Feats" of a Fighter are definitely an Ex Special Ability... probably an Ex Special Attack.

This is why we don't write abilities like this!

JaronK

It's a joke. Everyone on these boards is going to consider that a joke, ala Lightning Warrior (though obviously not as funny).

I'm trying to think of how to make the fighter tier 3 without homebrew, and, um... All I can really think of is taking feats that place you over your tier.   These typically aren't fighter bonus feats.

That's the thing: This is supposed to be a discussion of what makes the Fighter tier 5, and what bases need to be covered for it to be Tier 3 material.


I'm just going to have to sit down and retype that one post I made a few years back. Stupid 4000+ post count making it impractical to sift through.






FUCKING FUCK OF FUCKITY FUCK FUCKS! Setsuna, stop vanishing on me!

[awaken DM golem]

... I mean I was thinking about keeping the Fighter "chassis" as printed.

So those feats have to end up being the equal to
the 9th level spells access for Tier 2s,
but a wonkier delivery system, and less support.


20th level "feat" (ex) --- Deliver Unto Death:
Hit sends creature to one specific Outer plane chosen ahead of time.
Kinda like Primus.

[lans]

... I mean I was thinking about keeping the Fighter "chassis" as printed.

So those feats have to end up being the equal to
the 9th level spells access for Tier 2s,
but a wonkier delivery system, and less support.


20th level "feat" (ex) --- Deliver Unto Death:
Hit sends creature to one specific Outer plane chosen ahead of time.
Kinda like Primus.

Adding fighter level to every thing would come close, and solve a lot of issues. Great fortitude giving +9 to fortitude saves at level 7 should leave a fighter with a good chance of making a DC 25. Skill focus amounting to full ranks in a class skill, and those +2/2 feats being +22/22 means a fighter can be a pretty decent guard.

[vilenatas]

... I mean I was thinking about keeping the Fighter "chassis" as printed.

So those feats have to end up being the equal to
the 9th level spells access for Tier 2s,
but a wonkier delivery system, and less support.


20th level "feat" (ex) --- Deliver Unto Death:
Hit sends creature to one specific Outer plane chosen ahead of time.
Kinda like Primus.

Adding fighter level to every thing would come close, and solve a lot of issues. Great fortitude giving +9 to fortitude saves at level 7 should leave a fighter with a good chance of making a DC 25. Skill focus amounting to full ranks in a class skill, and those +2/2 feats being +22/22 means a fighter can be a pretty decent guard.

Something like "If a feat can be taken as a fighter bonus feat the bonus is equal to fighter level or the listed bonus whichever is higher."  Would give monster bonuses to a bunch of different feats for a fighter only.

[Ithamar]

Things to make the Fighter more useful:

1) Able to ignore Fighter level worth of DR when attacking.
2) Damage ignores / overcomes Fighter level worth of regeneration or fast healing.
3) Each successful attack lowers SR by Fighter level for 1 round.
4) A successful attack imposes a penalty to the save of choice equal to the Fighter level for 1 round.

[Tshern]

So those feats have to end up being the equal to
the 9th level spells access for Tier 2s,

Access to 9th level spells does not mean access to Tier 2. Have a look at, say, the Dread Necromancer, Healer and Beguiler.

[veekie]

So those feats have to end up being the equal to
the 9th level spells access for Tier 2s,

Access to 9th level spells does not mean access to Tier 2. Have a look at, say, the Dread Necromancer, Healer and Beguiler.

Having the ability to shop for said spells across a variety of lists does though.

[Tshern]

Assuming you do get the spells you want, yes.

[DMM4ever]

I find it fascinating that there is so little true fighter optimisation done when compared to spellcasting optimisation.

- Giacomo

That's like eating expired Oscar Meyer bologna with a midget perched on your shoulders hitting you in the head with a hammer when you could've eaten fillet mignon, while receiving a blowjob.

I pretty much died laughing there... Good one Lycan

On Topic: The warblade had a good idea of giving the fighter pseudo-spells and reducing bonus feats.  The idea here would be to make feats that are much more valuable when chosen by fighters or only available to fighters.

The key problem with fighters, as we all know, is lack of versatility.  They have plenty of power, a well built fighter can pretty much one shot everything of party level and higher.  So can everything for that matter, but this is a problem with 3.5 as a whole, not just fighters.

The best idea, as far as I can tell, would be to add new feats with very steep prerequisites, so that any class could take them, but make it have, oh 4 feat requirements and no level req.  Make said feats very powerful if gained at 6th level but weak/on par if gained at 9th, then give the Fighter a feat every level.  These feats would then have further ones behind it that are again very powerful if gained early, eventually leading into capstone-level stuff around level 10-12 if you chose to really specialize but you can also choose to go down a bunch of different paths if you want instead.

Also, I recommend taking away the fighter bonus feat restriction as well.  I play with a fairly under-optimized group, but taking away this restriction made the fighter A LOT more useful in the party.

[dark_samuari]

@ dark_samuari;

perhaps nominate it be the mundane bad-ass who is really good at fighting a select few enemies through offensive means.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

NO.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.

EVERY.  FUCKING.  CHARACTER.  SHOULD.  BE.  ABLE.  TO.  CONTRIBUTE.  TO.  EVERY.  COMBAT.  DND IS A GAME ABOUT FIGHTING.  IF ONE GUY IS SITTING THERE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO FOR THE HOUR OR SO THAT COMBAT TAKES, THEN HE IS FUCKING NOT PLAYING DND.  IF ONE GUY IS ONLY USEFUL AGAINST ONE SPECIFIC THING AND HAS NOTHING TO DO FOR THE REST OF THE TIME, THEN HE IS NOT FUCKING PLAYING DND.

You want the fighter's flavour to be 'the badass normal'?  SURE.  You want the fighter to be able to specialize in fighting certain kinds of things, like humanoids or giant sized things or flying things due to his choices?  SURE.  You want to make the fighter mechanically weaker than everyone else at the table except against a couple of specific foes so he's more 'mundane'?  FUCK.  RIGHT.  OFF.

Woah, let's tone it down there Pachino...

What do you feel we should reconstruct the fighter into being, thematically?

[juton]

The best idea, as far as I can tell, would be to add new feats with very steep prerequisites, so that any class could take them, but make it have, oh 4 feat requirements and no level req.  Make said feats very powerful if gained at 6th level but weak/on par if gained at 9th, then give the Fighter a feat every level.  These feats would then have further ones behind it that are again very powerful if gained early, eventually leading into capstone-level stuff around level 10-12 if you chose to really specialize but you can also choose to go down a bunch of different paths if you want instead.

While steep requirements can be a good idea, forcing lots of prereqs on to good feats is not. A fighter only gets 11 extra feats, if he has to blow four of them on prereqs to get what he really wants then that's a serious nerf.

I really hate prereq feats to get too other feats, so if we gave the Fighter the ability to ignore prereq feats when choosing his feats does that break anything? Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec probably die, but Melee weapon mastery is still worth taking, and a chain tripper wouldn't need 13 int anymore, it's not a big change but could it be part of a larger solution?