What would it take to make the Fighter a Tier 3 class?

[bkdubs123]

Melee gishes can easily remain firmly in the Tier 2 realm if that's what you're asking for. Other than that, no, I can't think any non-gish melee build that can hope to move to Tier 2.

[JaronK]

JaronK is specifically referring to Mooks.  He's using the word 'guards', but it's clear from context that what he is referring to is Mooks.

...no.  I was quite clear about how I was saying that the fluff about guards gives as a good reason to give Fighters solid perceptive abilities that would allow them to do things like identify ambushes for the party, realize when the party is being played, and give Fighters the ability to better identify their enemies.  Mooks just stand around and get tricked and die in droves when someone else jumps them and kills them.  Fighters should be perceptive and experienced warriors who know a trap when they see one and are difficult to catch off guard.

I have nothing against guards.  I have nothing against bodyguard PCs.  I have nothing against a Guard class that specializes in stopping infiltration and assassination.  I just don't think that GODDAMN FIGHTER, whose job is to FIGHT, should spend his first 5 levels being a GUARD, whose job is to GUARD.

Whereas I think a Fighter should be able to spend his first five levels in front of the party as the fluff says, leading them into battle, instead of having to stay in the back because his complete lack of both stealth and perception often makes him a liability (he's liable to warn monsters of the party's approach, and serves no purpose in the front anyway).

Fighters need to be more than just attack dogs that have to be held back outside of combat due to being completely worthless.  And that means they have to have thematic abilities that are actually useful when the problem can't be solved by nothing more than "hit it with something sharp."  But you can't just randomly give them abilities, or you're making a new class.  It has to still feel like a Fighter, so the abilities you give them have to fit with how they're currently described.

To be clear, "guard" isn't the only potential source of abilities.  Leadership abilities are hinted at, so we can give them appropriate things for that (preferably better implemented than an ability to randomly create an army anywhere regardless of what else is around them and then arbitrarily decree that Bards can't buff them).  Being really tough is hinted at, so we can give them level appropriate abilities that fit with that concept as well.  And being flexible is also hinted at (especially with some of Skip's commentary in "Classes with Class") so we should give them abilities that work with that too.

As for the existence of T2 melees, Binders can do it, but they do it with Zceryll summons, so that's probably not really the point...

JaronK

[lans]

Wouldn't a highly optimized Crusader or Warblade be tier 2?

[Lycanthromancer]

Wouldn't a highly optimized Crusader or Warblade be tier 2?

ToB really doesn't have much room for tier-movement, unless you count overtly cheesy tricks such as the d2 crusader or the blot-out-the-sun-using-Iron-Heart-Surge trick. Unlike wizards, who can range from T6 to T-negative-10 based on their tactics and spell selections.

Psywars do, however, cross the line with relative ease.

[Unbeliever]

Wouldn't a highly optimized Crusader or Warblade be tier 2?

If memory serves, the Tiers are representations of how many different roles the class/build can fill and how many terrible awful tricks one can pull out.  That's why Wizards are Tier 1 while Sorcerers are Tier 2:  a Wizard could contact other plane all day on Tuesday, then planar bind helpful minions on Wednesday, and then unleash battlefield control magicks on Thursday.  Though I defer to people who have a better sense of the Tiers heuristic.

I don't find these to be particularly helpful or important things to pick out when it comes to builds or characters, but I'm one of the minority who does not like the Tiers thinking.

[lans]

Wouldn't a highly optimized Crusader or Warblade be tier 2?

ToB really doesn't have much room for tier-movement, unless you count overtly cheesy tricks such as the d2 crusader or the blot-out-the-sun-using-Iron-Heart-Surge trick. Unlike wizards, who can range from T6 to T-negative-10 based on their tactics and spell selections.

Psywars do, however, cross the line with relative ease.

I figured between d2, IHS, WRT, they would  hit it.

[JaronK]

Wouldn't a highly optimized Crusader or Warblade be tier 2?

Generally, the dividing line for me between T2 and T3 is that T3 characters have class abilities that help them deal with situations in the campaigns, while T2 characters have abilities that drastically change the campaigns without necessarily using the tools the campaigns provide.  For example, Iron Heart Surge lets you shrug off whatever effect is currently being thrown at you by the DM... but Fabricate + Wall of Stone can let you just build a castle somewhere.  Even a D2 Crusader just kills the enemies thrown at him, which has a very different effect from initiating a Wish loop with Planar Binding or deciding to just skip the boat section of the campaign via Teleport.

Obviously, the difference is huge for DMs trying to plot out a campaign world... having PCs solve your encounters easier than you thought is one thing, but having them decide to just Plane Shift to the City of Brass one day is a whole other ballgame (yes, that latter situation actually happened in a campaign I was in, though the DM ended up just arbitrarily banning it because it wouldn't have fit with the story he wanted to tell even though it was a perfectly logical thing to do).

So in general, it's very hard for a non casting class to get above T3, because few things other than spells actually have that "I'm just going to do this completely out of left field thing now" effect.

JaronK

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Wouldn't a highly optimized Crusader or Warblade be tier 2?

I think Arcane Swordsage is T2, but b/c of the spells(based on my interpretation of a very vague adaptation).

[Bester]

ToB really doesn't have much room for tier-movement, unless you count overtly cheesy tricks such as the d2 crusader or the blot-out-the-sun-using-Iron-Heart-Surge trick. Unlike wizards, who can range from T6 to T-negative-10 based on their tactics and spell selections.

Psywars do, however, cross the line with relative ease.

My coplayer/dms didn't believe me about blotting out the sun and we had a nice discussion about what you can do with iron-heart-surge.  Our warblade//marshal has it, and I'm currently dming games where NPCs refer to it as "the forbidden technique."  Can't wait till he turns off an important antimagic field and frees the god we've (me and other dms) been hinting at for almost a year and a half.  Warblades replaced fighter in my E6 game, and they are close to a tier 2 class because of how early they get time stop and insta-no(ihs)

[AlphaBravo]

A few things:

Fighters need not be `unique' badasses like Beowulf and Gilgamesh and so on. If they have Perception skills, they can also be the `badass guards' that (try to) keep the heroes from sneaking into The Necromancer's Castle^TM - generally, in that role they will die because the heroes are level 5 PCs and the fighters are Lv2s because they aren't the BBEG, but they need to provide a `challenging' encounter.

About abilities, Lv>5 Fighters should have some kewl non-feat abilities. I can suggest some of them here:

Dispelling Attack (Ex): From level X, Fighters can use weapons with enough precision to counter magical effects. As a standard action, a Fighter can try to do a Dispelling Attack. He can make a touch attack with a melee weapon he has against a creature or magical effect, and, in lieu of inflicting damage, he can make a targeted dispel attempt (using his fighter level, increased by four, as the effective caster level). If he desires so, he can make some effects which he chooses unaffected by this ability.

Take that, BCC. The +4 is because CL > CR. The Melee limit is to prevent him from debuffing his enemies during prebattle.

Counterattack (Ex): Fighters of level X or higher are able to deflect attacks and prevent them from harming them. As an Immediate Action, a Fighter can counter a melee or projectile attack that passes through his reach and block it. He can make an opposed attack roll with his weapon, with a minus two penalty for every 10 feet between him and the weapon, which also has to be higher then the projectile's AC (10 + size bonus + 4 circumstance bonus + the attribute added to the attack roll). Naturally, a Fighter can't counter with a weapon he is currently attacking with.

Deflect Attack (Ex): From level X, fighters which counterattack an attack can deflect it to hit a different target. They can deflect any ranged weapon whose attack they negate via Counterattack and make it hit a different target, using their counter-attack roll, with an -4 penalty and counting range increments from the contact point (the point midway between the attacks if both are ranged), but maximum range from the original attacker. They can only deflect melee weapons only into targets inside their reach. Also, if an attacker desires, he can attack in a way that allows a Fighter to deflect his attack easily, essentially making an Aid Another action to the Fighter's attack, and removing the opposite attack roll.

A very iconic move. Yes fighters can `robin-hood' arrows if he rolls a low or `beam-reflect' the party Wizard's rays if needed. Or the BBEG's rays back into his face, of course.

Find Opportunity (Ex): At level X, a Fighter can find easily weaknesses in the defense of enemies of a lower BAB from him even when they don't make tactical errors. As an immediate action, he can make an Attack of Opportunity. As a special exception, he can use ranged weapons on a target 60 feet from him or closer in the attack. That Attack of Opportunity does not count against his limit of 1 (or more, with the Combat Reflexes feat etc.) Attack of Opportunity per turn limit.

A limited form of `foil'. Yes, he CAN make Evasive Reflexes moves

Combat Style (Ex): A Fighter of 3rd level or higher knows about fighting enough he can avoid making blunders. Any time he rolls a result of 1 on an attack roll or a save, he can re-roll the dice. He can keep doing so until he gets a result higher then 1. Every four levels after 3rd, he can reroll results 1 higher.

DIE, NATURAL 1's, DIE DIE DIE! Heroes don't roll 1 on dice!

Combat Skill (Ex) A fighter of 3rd level or higher knows enough things about combat, he is able to learn new combat skills much quicker then generally possible. He can swap up to a half of his feats gained by his Bonus Feats ability (rounded down, must swap the same feats every time) by training for an hour. He can only retrain his skills once a day.

Combat Mastery (Ex) A fighter of 4th level knows enough about combat to be able to adapt his skills at a moment's notice. He gains a Fighter Feat as an Additional Feat, and, as a Swift Action, he can change it for a different Fighter Feat. Every 3 levels after 4th, he gains an additional feat like that, and from 13th level, he can swap all of them as a Swift Action.

From my `older' fighter fixes. Yes, a fighter is THAT MUCH badass.

More Swift/Immediate Actions (still can't decide progression, high enough to deter dippers)

Plus some assorted rules:

• During the first round after their creation, Conjuration [Creation] are absorbing magic energy. During this time, they can be dispelled, and, if they enter an Anti-Magic Field, they are negated.

Makes antimagic less of a suicide. You still need an airforce to prevent bombing, however.

• The term `Additional Feat' (marked with a sup a, like Combat Reflexes^a) is like a bonus feat, except you can't gain it unless you meet the prerequisites, and it does not work if you are reduced under them (e.g. after a Ray of Enfeeblement reduces a Fighter's strength to 12). A fighter's bonus feats (class ability) now count as additional feats.

[Rejakor]

JaronK;

I think the fighter should get spot and listen and sense motive.  I even think the fighter should get diplomacy and bluff.  I just don't think that he should spend the first levels of his career, as you put it, 'being a guard'.  That fluff, that thinking, encourages people to build a fighter that only really 'comes online' at level 5+.  A fighter should be playable, and recognizable, as a fighter, from level 1.

Also, your proposed changes are nowhere near enough to make a fighter anywhere near t3.

That is all I was trying to say.

@jeffrie

Your build is alright. However, you seem to have put 20 levels in when you meant to put 8?  I look at those class abilities, and I see a level 8, maybe level 10, fighter.  At best.  And that fighter is still at best medium-high t4.

@ Bestie;

Insta-no that uses an action, and isn't good for everything (unconsciousness, charm, dominate, etc).  Nothing stopping getting restunned the next round after they move away or whatever.

Also, time stop?  Do you mean WRT?  That ability as written doesn't really work well.  It's kind of wtf.  And the best use of it is to have a bunch of low level warblades standing around your ubercaster giving him extra turns.  You can totally get two warblades tag-teaming to have a turn that never ends, too, if you want.  With swordsage recovery mechanic, they can stroll all the way around the world in six seconds.

Chuck and the d2 crusader and whatnot don't really make t2, if the 10 mile fanatic bard and the dragonfire inspiratiwhat bard don't make it to 2nd.

@ Person-pretending-to-be-giacomo;

Most monsters at level 1 are unlikely to make their will save against colour spray, and a moderately intelligent mage is unlikely to enter either threatened areas, or move too far beyond the protection of his melee comrades, who are generally at 5' range flailing away.  Also, most wizards have at least 14 con, even elven ones.

And finally, life is cheap at first level.  Hell, it's cheap at third level.  Most wizards (read: all wizards) will take a short-range encounter-ender over a long-range wasted spell slot.  If you want to do 1d4+1 damage at range, be a dedicated archer.  Hell, be a wizard archer.  18 dex elf with a longbow is +4 to hit, and you can do it all day long!

@ DM_golem;

Giving the fighter broken epic feats is probably not the best way to fix the class.

Crafting is nice, but mostly flavour.  Doesn't add to the playability or power of the class.

@ Unbeliever

I believe the tiers aren't meant to represent relative power, just relative campaign style.  A game you run with wizards in it will be different, especially at higher levels, than the game you run for fighters and duskblades and bards.

@ Kajhera

Using saves and SR to things that they aren't supposed to work on is kind of odd and weird and hard to adjudicate.  At what point does the Fighter start affecting the boulder with his save or SR?  When it's thrown?  Before that?  Why before that?  Does he just have to look at a spell and it explodes?  What does that mean when he's in a town covered in spells, like Sharn?

It seems like a swift action to negate certain kinds of spells, ability to discern illusions (or allow a save) prettymuch automatically (like that inquisitor domain or illusion domain or whatever feature), and otherwise mess with spellcasting enemies.  The point of the fighter isn't to be a caster-killer, though.  My view of the fluff is that he's supposed to be hard to stop (emphasis here), good at melee combat, and good at screwing with enemy plans.  Thus, I built a fighter that had immunities, good saves, ways to use immediate actions to stop things, ways to get full saves from partial saves (mettle, evasion), ways to monkeywrench enemy actions/move before they're ready and thus spoil their plans, and ways to be good at hitting things (being good at hitting things means a) you do enough damage things that care about damage care about it  b) you have ways to hit things that are hard to hit  c) you have rider effects on your attacks - they don't just do damage, they daze, or nauseate, or stun, or set on fire, or something  d) you have attacks that aren't just to hit vs AC in melee range).

The problem with most people's thinking here, that I can see, is that they are looking at the fighter MECHANICS and trying to work out how to make something that is the same as that but better, but that's essentially impossible.  You can't have the same mechanics (or 'feel' as people are calling it... personally, to me, mechanics != feel, you can have entirely different mechanics but retain the same 'feel', but whatever) and have the class be better.  Adding random boring shitty abilities to the fighter class doesn't actually make it meaningfully better.  If it is still doing the same things, but with +1 or something, it is still going to be a crappy class that dies a lot against anything deadly and does only hitpoint damage.

-----------------------------------

[lans]

@ Rejakor- I think your placing tier changes higher than what they actually are. Especially when it comes to changing a high tier 5 to tier 4.

Lets start with get to a few things
#1 the body, Does the fighter need to have a better body than it does  now? d10, high fort, 2sp/lvl, proficient with martial and below, and all armor and shields.

#2 Should weapon spec line be reduced to one feat?

#3 Should weapon Specialization do more than hit/damage+weapon supremacy?

#4 Should the fighter get better action economy.

#5 Should he be able to buff?

I vote yes for 1-4, and no for 5.

[veekie]

I think your placing tier changes higher than what they actually are. Especially when it comes to changing a high tier 5 to tier 4.

Thats the disconnect here I think. His perception of T3 seems quite a bit closer to T2, given that Warblades(the most commonly used T3 definition) can't pull tricks that good either. Via maneuvers, they can inflict status effects, make use of Swift actions to maneuver or quick-buff, negate status effects and the rest more or less simply enhance damage output/targeted enemies.

#1 the body, Does the fighter need to have a better body than it does  now? d10, high fort, 2sp/lvl, proficient with martial and below, and all armor and shields.

The chassis overall is ok-ish for a front liner. Good Reflex(without benefit of Evasion even) to make frontlining more endurable even with friendly fire. 2 skills per level is hideously low for any  non-int based class, and their list isn't hot to begin with. Proficiency wise, they got enough, though a 'free' floating proficiency wouldn't hurt.

#2 Should weapon spec line be reduced to one feat?
#3 Should weapon Specialization do more than hit/damage+weapon supremacy?

Shouldn't be a feat at all. Just build the thing into the class chassis, scale the bonuses as the fighter levels and limit them by weapon archetype. Pathfinder got that one right, though little else. Possibly give them their weapon/armor enhancements for free, given that those cost a lot, are available for cheap anyway via pearls of power and they are already dependent on more abilities(and hence more +X stat items) than the casty classes. They can then put that wealth into decent magical equipment.

Weapon specific tactics/talents would be good too. Prior to the launch of 4e they were touting something about each type of weapon user being unique and distinct in combat. They didn't do it of course.
You could integrate this into some kind of fighting style(warning, Fuckton of work), which gives bonuses and special techniques. Bonus, combining multiple weapon styles(Long Blade + Short Blade + TWF -> Blade & Dirk(only need one of the prereqs to learn)) to generate specific tactics based on the weapon combination, this has been seen in the weapon style feats of Complete Warrior, though as usual the implementation didn't quite take off.

#4 Should the fighter get better action economy.

That, is just the fighting end. With that, you got high T4...given the right implementation. They would need to be able to inflict and counter status effects, and attack with extended reach or wide areas. Also, do not forget archery and other ranged combat forms as options, if you aim to be well rounded.
To get to T3 you'd need noncombat abilities expanding on the fighter's legend. At low level, access to Swift and Immediate Actions(for parrying, moving, or diverting attacks) can be some of these, as well as exceptional senses(more a thing of eastern literature, but a danger sense is almost universal) and teamwork enhancment. By mid levels they'd need feats of exceptional athletics(super jumping for example or ignoring terrain), high speed, exotic damage recovery(ability damage in particular)/resistance and direct/indirect access to exotic movement and senses. By high levels, planar travel by some means is desirable, as well as more esoteric abilities that can be linked to the Fighter Image.

#5 Should he be able to buff?

Not really. Buffing is for those who require temporary enhancements. The Fighter has less of an inherent need for buffing, though we do know that temporary 'burst' power is the way to go when raising peak output.

[Bortasz]

I don't understand why you guys so much talk about Skils. Sorry but Fighter is strong Tier 5... and we hear try to increase him to Tier 3... Oki Change his skils and skil points from 2 to 4 and he will go to weak Tier 4 but that will never but him in Tier 3.
For Tier 3 you need some special abilites that for Averege person are almost Magic, extraordinary... Like Haste for several Round. Fast Healing or something like that.

To be in Tier 3 Fighter must be able to fight witch Crusader (Heal him self or ally when hiting enemy) Dread necromancer (9 lvl spells) Warblade (Flexibility and Lots of Damage) Binder (Save or Die spells in evry 5 rounds.) Feats? Psychic Warrior also have them... and he have better list of them and Powers and Psionic Focus...

[Rejakor]

The warblade is T3 because it is versatile due to an increasingly large list of maneuvers and stances, and it gets bonus feats, and to add it's int to stuff.  Honestly, I think it's low T3, compared to the other T3 classes.  Most people forget that it doesn't get shadow jaunt/stride/blink or devoted spirit stuff unless it spends a feat, although it does get access to both IHS and the ever popular white raven tactics.

I also personally don't like the maneuver classes because I believe their damage is often sub-par - the class wants you to be using strikes, and unless you're going to raging mongoose or need to bypass DR/hardness for some burning reason, you're never going to use strikes, since using boosts, counters, and stances with a feat chain that lets you full attack, ubercharge, or lockdown is generally a better idea.  You're going to use Two With One Blow or whatever it's called at low levels, sure.  You're going to use Leading The Charge when it's tactically advantageous, sure, because level in damage isn't a minor buff, and charging is probably what you'd be doing anyway if you're using it.

But to be honest, without crap like sudden leap or hearing the air, warblade definitely wouldn't be T3.  To reiterate, it's defenses are the diamond mind conc check instead of save stuff, IHS, immediate action sudden leap to break LoS/LoE, counter charge, etc.  It's attacks are basic fighter attacks.  And it gets to tremorsense and get various bonuses and give other people actions, plus it has class features that add int to damage sometimes and to reflex saves and stuff.  All in all, it comes to low T3, because it can cover multiple roles/do multiple things, but it has absolutely no way of game-changing like T2 sorcs do, other than IHSurging away the sun or gravity or something.

#1
HD is 'whoop de fuck'.  If the Fighter is using hp to power his special abilities, he needs more hp, so either 1d20 HD, or double con instead of single con.  If you're not giving him extra ways to attack/do damage, he needs more BAB than 1/level, but people will balk at that, and it's just a clumsy way of doing it, so you could fairly safely leave it at 1/lvl.  He needs more skill points, because he is not a int-based class, and he needs 6-8 skills as is.  You could give him all physical skills, knowledge: martial, and profession: soldier maxed out for free if you wanted to, and then 4/lvl, but it kind of cuts down on customization.  Might have to do that to cut down on the nards going 'BUT THAT IS THE ROGUE'S TERRITORY OMG HAX' for you giving the fighter 8/lvl.  IMO, fighters should either be proficient with all exotic weapons, or they should have proficiency with any 3 they pick.

#2  + #3
Yep.  Weapon spec is a useless fucking excuse for a class feature.  Woo, +4 hit and +4 damage and a special feat at level whatever to take ten on an attack and be 'hard to disarm'.  Useless.

Fighters should get signature weapons that start at +1 and go up to +15 at level 20.  They should be able to switch these weapons out with an hour's training, and have 1 at a time at level 1 and 5 at a time at level 20.   Give some way of getting plusses that isn't kensai 'everything you use is flaming smoking deathmarking', and isn't 'pick and choose the perfect weapon mods for the next fight!'.  My method in the Goddamn Fighter writeup was to let them use special abilities from the base weapon they were holding, at a cost to the +whatever they had from fighter levels.

#4
Basically what veekie said, but fighter also needs to be able to not get instagibbed by effects that daze with stupidhigh DCs (dazing blow DC 25 at CR 7 or whatever, boomerang daze with DC 512489125, i'm looking at you), or stun, or nauseate no save, or whatever.  At this point I don't even really care if he can do T2 or T3 stuff in terms of ripping rifts in time and space or whatever, but he needs to not get instagibbed at fighting or he is T4 or worse automatically.

#5
The fighter shouldn't NEED to buff.  That's the point.  He should be good enough to go into combat at all times on his own, and should, in fact, have faint design flaws which make it so that a lot of his abilities or bonuses don't work properly when he's buffed, so while he realizes a bonus from being Enlarged or whatever, he can't use his Canny Fighter Dodging Trip ability that requires him to be the same size or smaller than the opposition.  This is because buffs BREAK THE GAME IN HALF and the fighter shouldn't need that crazy, and furthermore, adding buff spells to the fighter shouldn't break him in half.  It should make him mildly better, like, 150% of normal, not 1529012358u32852350982735crazy% better.

[vilenatas]

What about making an iron heart surge like effect that acts like a contingency, so it can be used without an action in response to something, but needs to be re-applied after the encounter (essentially a technique that applies 1/encounter but is a non-action), this gives the fighter something sort of like a wizard in being able to act without acting.  This could apply other maneuver like effects at higher levels.  1/encounter automatic effects might get by some of the dm's that are afraid of massive immunities that are just that are being suggested in other situations and could scale nicely with levels until possibly giving a time stop like effect or something at higher levels.

HD is 'whoop de fuck'.  If the Fighter is using hp to power his special abilities, he needs more hp, so either 1d20 HD, or double con instead of single con.

I like double con or automatic 15 hit points or something rather than d20, but I agree on the point that all melee's need more hit points since con is where the real hit points come from and since fighters are far more MAD than their T1 and T2 counterparts(especially if we want intelligent fighters) they end up with a lacking con.

Adding something such as con bonus as dr/-, 3xcon bonus as resist all could also help on the hit point front.

[Bester]

@ Bestie;

Insta-no that uses an action, and isn't good for everything (unconsciousness, charm, dominate, etc).  Nothing stopping getting restunned the next round after they move away or whatever.

Also, time stop?  Do you mean WRT?  That ability as written doesn't really work well.  It's kind of wtf.  And the best use of it is to have a bunch of low level warblades standing around your ubercaster giving him extra turns.  You can totally get two warblades tag-teaming to have a turn that never ends, too, if you want.  With swordsage recovery mechanic, they can stroll all the way around the world in six seconds.

Chuck and the d2 crusader and whatnot don't really make t2, if the 10 mile fanatic bard and the dragonfire inspiratiwhat bard don't make it to 2nd.

E6 has a bit of a different tier system imho.  Psions are tier 0 with their cheese.  Wizards cannot grant their allies a full turn, a warblade can.  A strong use of an action is the insta-no, considering unlimited refresh but lack of spell slots for casters.  I had NPCs use both maneuvers last game and scared the shit out of the party.  Especially since I gave a moral dilemma to the warblade//marshal to join his old allies (NPCs) against the PCs.  Thankfully, he sided with the PCs and saved the day, at the perceived cost of being alienated by his whole race...(which he wasn't)  The highlight of the game was the paladin//sorc accidentally catching a town guard in battlefield control, resulting in money changing hands(compensation).  There are consequences to magic?

That said, fighter is the worst E6 class imaginable, even with a capstone of getting higher level feats.

[veekie]

I like double con or automatic 15 hit points or something rather than d20, but I agree on the point that all melee's need more hit points since con is where the real hit points come from and since fighters are far more MAD than their T1 and T2 counterparts(especially if we want intelligent fighters) they end up with a lacking con.

Adding something such as con bonus as dr/-, 3xcon bonus as resist all could also help on the hit point front.

Actually, extra hit points wouldn't do a lot towards melee endurance. Its a linear increase, which contested against the iterative damage gain across multiple attacks, would buy you maybe one round, against an individual foe. DR and resistances cuts your opponent in the damage increase, so it lasts longer. A Universal DR might be needed if you're dealing with Force spells, but thankfully most of them don't hit that hard to begin with.

[Bortasz]

Rejakor.... look at the Warblade Swordsage and Crusader. They can buff themself. Psychic warrior and Duskblade also can do this.  All Fighting classes of Tier 3 have lot of option at they disposal.

Barbarian Tier 4 Has only one Buff Rage.

IF you want increase Tier of Fighter to 3 then he MUST have several option buffing himself.

You can Double his Hit points, you can double his Save you can add that his BAB also is adding to Damage
But that only put him in Tier 4. He will be Great Fighter... but Psychicwarrior have lot more options, Crusader is also good Combat Healer, Warblade... well Warblade is what Fighter should be.

Sorry but But mundane person have little chances of getting in to Tier 3

Weapon Aptitude
Weapon Specialization ass Class feature that increase witch lvl and give bonus to all Weapons.
Extraordinary Speed
Extraordinary Endurance
Extraordinary Strange
Fast Healing
Energy Resistance...
Plus some "Auras" or others bonuses for the rest of Group. np Auras of Divine Mind.

[lans]

#1
HD is 'whoop de fuck'.  If the Fighter is using hp to power his special abilities, he needs more hp, so either 1d20 HD, or double con instead of single con.  If you're not giving him extra ways to attack/do damage, he needs more BAB than 1/level, but people will balk at that, and it's just a clumsy way of doing it, so you could fairly safely leave it at 1/lvl.  He needs more skill points, because he is not a int-based class, and he needs 6-8 skills as is.  You could give him all physical skills, knowledge: martial, and profession: soldier maxed out for free if you wanted to, and then 4/lvl, but it kind of cuts down on customization.  Might have to do that to cut down on the nards going 'BUT THAT IS THE ROGUE'S TERRITORY OMG HAX' for you giving the fighter 8/lvl.  IMO, fighters should either be proficient with all exotic weapons, or they should have proficiency with any 3 they pick.

I was thinking that a heavy save and skill increase would be a huge deal. Doing d12s and better proficiencies was  just a piss in a lake increase.

 I figure 6 skill points. I don't want to do more than that, but giving bonuses to certain skills might be good also. Like at 7th level he adds his constitution modifier to all skill checks or something.

I was thinking a 15/15/12 for saves, gives him a chance against most things.

#2  + #3
Yep.  Weapon spec is a useless fucking excuse for a class feature.  Woo, +4 hit and +4 damage and a special feat at level whatever to take ten on an attack and be 'hard to disarm'.  Useless.

Fighters should get signature weapons that start at +1 and go up to +15 at level 20.  They should be able to switch these weapons out with an hour's training, and have 1 at a time at level 1 and 5 at a time at level 20.   Give some way of getting plusses that isn't kensai 'everything you use is flaming smoking deathmarking', and isn't 'pick and choose the perfect weapon mods for the next fight!'.  My method in the Goddamn Fighter writeup was to let them use special abilities from the base weapon they were holding, at a cost to the +whatever they had from fighter levels.

I think just tossing a huge bonus is a kinda dumb idea.

I was thinking about making it a combination of style  and weapons. The weapon bonuses would fall in line with the bonuses already given.  For simplicities sake. The Fighter would get lets say 5 of these by 20.  I don't like the idea of him swapping it out.

The style was going to do something like

Light weapons- At level 5 you deal Dex damage in addition to strength. At level 9 you may make a full attack as a standard action or at the end of a charge.  Don't have later abilities.

Unarmed Strike- You count as Fighter level/5 sizes larger for purposes of grappling, tripping, disarming, and bull rushing. At level 15 you can ignore the effects of freedom of movement, and can opt to teleport along with the creature you are grappling. At level 20 you add 1/2 your strength to damage rolls with unarmed strikes.

#4
Basically what veekie said, but fighter also needs to be able to not get instagibbed by effects that daze with stupidhigh DCs (dazing blow DC 25 at CR 7 or whatever, boomerang daze with DC 512489125, i'm looking at you), or stun, or nauseate no save, or whatever.  At this point I don't even really care if he can do T2 or T3 stuff in terms of ripping rifts in time and space or whatever, but he needs to not get instagibbed at fighting or he is T4 or worse automatically.

With my 15/15/12 idea he would have a base save of +6 at level 7. Would that be close? Its not even close with just a base save alone, but he's on the grid.

#5
The fighter shouldn't NEED to buff.  That's the point.  He should be good enough to go into combat at all times on his own, and should, in fact, have faint design flaws which make it so that a lot of his abilities or bonuses don't work properly when he's buffed, so while he realizes a bonus from being Enlarged or whatever, he can't use his Canny Fighter Dodging Trip ability that requires him to be the same size or smaller than the opposition.  This is because buffs BREAK THE GAME IN HALF and the fighter shouldn't need that crazy, and furthermore, adding buff spells to the fighter shouldn't break him in half.  It should make him mildly better, like, 150% of normal, not 1529012358u32852350982735crazy% better.

I was origanally against this, but what if we gave the fighter swift/immediate action on the next X style buffs? Say an immediate action to gain 1/3 fighter level on the next save? Heck maybe even with a move action. Not sure if those count as buffs...