You are the Royal Wizard in charge of security. How do you prevent scry & die?

[Sinfire Titan]

Uh.... the DC of the caster level check to dispel = 11 +CL.  So CL 21 = DC 32.

The maximum for normal Dispel magic is 10+ 20(assuming you keep trying to roll a natural 20) = 30... so you could get away with CL 20.

On the other hand, if you consider Greater dispel magic or Reaving dispel, which you should,  then you need a higher DC.  Reaving dispel can hit a DC 40... so you need CL 31

You are assuming they have the luxury of taking 20 on a Dispel check. They don't, and all you need to do is have the King decree such actions illegal. They draw attention to themselves, and the problem takes care of itself.

[SorO_Lost]

Kill them.

If I'm the Wizard and I'm being reduced to Security Guard, then someone's got to die.

How? The guy with NPC levels is your master, a cat can kick your ass.

***

There's a hole, there's a hole.
There's a hole in the middle of the wall.
There's a ring gate, there's a ring gate.
There's a ring gate in a hole in the middle of the wall.
There's an illusion, there's an illusion.
There's an illusion in a ring gate in a hole in the middle of the wall.
There's a room, there's a room.
There's a room in an illusion in a ring gate in a hole in the middle of the wall.
There's a lair ward, there's a lair ward.
There's a lair ward in a room in an illusion in a ring gate in a hole in the middle of the wall.
There's sand, there is sand.
There's some sand a lair ward in a room in an illusion in a ring gate in a hole in the middle of the wall.
There's a king, there's a king.
There's a king in some sand a lair ward in a room in an illusion in a ring gate in a hole in the middle of the wall.

Wizard: I cast Greater Teleport! Take me to the King Caknothindme.
Spell: Error, site unknown. Please enter description.
Wizard: Well no one enters but the king, the doorway is trapped, but I did charm the crap out of some mice. Take me to the sandy area!
Good luck teleporting into that in which you cannot find and that in which is everchanging and widely fits the description of thousands upon thousands of miles of nothing. Best part is you can buy this stuff rather than having to cast spells all the time.

[MalcolmSprye]

Uh.... the DC of the caster level check to dispel = 11 +CL.  So CL 21 = DC 32.

The maximum for normal Dispel magic is 10+ 20(assuming you keep trying to roll a natural 20) = 30... so you could get away with CL 20.

Forbiddence has special rules about Dispel Magic.

JaronK

dispeller's level...." ; what level?  Caster level?   Hit dice?  combined Class levels?
 If it's CL, then you just need to hit CL 21(it doesn't say you have to apply your full CL to your Dispel roll)
If it's hit dice, then a Inspire Greatness will bypass it.
If combined class levels... yah, I don't see any way around it, but I can't remember seeing that usage anywhere.  Normally they use HD to cover things with powerful races (like, say... dragons).

1) Yes, because the spells all function "like dispel magic."
2) Level by itself means Character Level, AFAIK.  It could mean ECL, but no spellcaster worth anything is a member of a race with racial HD or a high LA adjustment, anyway, unless it has *lots* of innate spellcasting.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm
Great Wyrm Gold dragon: 41 hit dice.  Casts sorcerer spells at 17th level(and cleric).  So by your reading, he couldn't try to dispel that even if he was a sovereign loredrake?

[Sinfire Titan]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm
Great Wyrm Gold dragon: 41 hit dice.  Casts sorcerer spells at 17th level(and cleric).  So by your reading, he couldn't try to dispel that even if he was a sovereign loredrake?

When a Cleric says No Trespassing, they mean it.

[Sunic_Flames]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm
Great Wyrm Gold dragon: 41 hit dice.  Casts sorcerer spells at 17th level(and cleric).  So by your reading, he couldn't try to dispel that even if he was a sovereign loredrake?

When a Cleric says No Trespassing, they mean it.

None shall pass!

[Kaelik]

You guys are so weird. It means Caster level. That is obvious, because you judge whether or not something can be dispelled based on the dispelling ability of the person casting the dispel. Not based on the number of fighter levels they have.

It's the same line as in the Permancey spell, and I've never seen anyone claim that can be dispelled by a Wizard 2/Fighter 20.

[X-Codes]

You guys are so weird. It means Caster level. That is obvious, because you judge whether or not something can be dispelled based on the dispelling ability of the person casting the dispel. Not based on the number of fighter levels they have.

It's the same line as in the Permancey spell, and I've never seen anyone claim that can be dispelled by a Wizard 2/Fighter 20.

In any case, Divine casters beat Arcane ones at CL shenanigans, and by the time the scry-or-dier is within range to dispel the Forbiddance effect, he may as well just walk in.  All the time (note: real-world time, you can't dispel this shit from Limbo) he takes undoing the Forbiddance effect is time the court Wizard and court Cleric have to beat the everloving shit out of him.

[Kaelik]

You guys are so weird. It means Caster level. That is obvious, because you judge whether or not something can be dispelled based on the dispelling ability of the person casting the dispel. Not based on the number of fighter levels they have.

It's the same line as in the Permancey spell, and I've never seen anyone claim that can be dispelled by a Wizard 2/Fighter 20.

In any case, Divine casters beat Arcane ones at CL shenanigans, and by the time the scry-or-dier is within range to dispel the Forbiddance effect, he may as well just walk in.  All the time (note: real-world time, you can't dispel this shit from Limbo) he takes undoing the Forbiddance effect is time the court Wizard and court Cleric have to beat the everloving shit out of him.

What exactly does that have to do with what I said? No really. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said at all.

[CrimsonDeath]

Kill them.


If I'm the Wizard and I'm being reduced to Security Guard, then someone's got to die.

You know, this is a good point.  If you can't think of a way to protect against scry-and-die, chances are the enemy can't either.  Counterassassination!

Keep a cost-reduction archivist on-hand and craft about a million Summon Monster I traps.  Drown your enemy in celestial badgers!

How about Vivacious badgers?  Waste enough of the invaders' time with them, and they explode from awesomeness.

2)Also a question about the wording. "....unless the dispeller's level...." ; what level?  Caster level?   Hit dice?  combined Class levels?

Usually, when a spell talks about someone's "level", it's a caster level.  If it cares about HD or character level, it'll specify.  (See Blasphemy, Divine Power.)  As far as I know, the only thing that cares about ECL is how much XP you need to advance.

[X-Codes]

You guys are so weird. It means Caster level. That is obvious, because you judge whether or not something can be dispelled based on the dispelling ability of the person casting the dispel. Not based on the number of fighter levels they have.

It's the same line as in the Permancey spell, and I've never seen anyone claim that can be dispelled by a Wizard 2/Fighter 20.

In any case, Divine casters beat Arcane ones at CL shenanigans, and by the time the scry-or-dier is within range to dispel the Forbiddance effect, he may as well just walk in.  All the time (note: real-world time, you can't dispel this shit from Limbo) he takes undoing the Forbiddance effect is time the court Wizard and court Cleric have to beat the everloving shit out of him.

What exactly does that have to do with what I said? No really. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said at all.

I'm sorry, I thought you were saying something coherent about whether or not Forbiddance could be dispelled.  I didn't realize that you were the thousandth monkey and miraculously typed out a couple lines of Shakespeare.

[Prime32]

Everything in the castle is a golem. Everything.

Also, the king is a lich with that fragmented phylactery spell and his phylacteries are used as currency.

The simulacrums aren't just of the king, they were created after you used your 1/day item of fusion on the king. This has the bonus effect of making enemies think the king is a spellcaster.

[Kaelik]

I'm sorry, I thought you were saying something coherent about whether or not Forbiddance could be dispelled.  I didn't realize that you were the thousandth monkey and miraculously typed out a couple lines of Shakespeare.

I was talking about the rules, and what the rules have to say about dispelling Forbiddance, because people where coming up with incredibly stupid ideas about how the statement level meant ECL, not CL. Nothing I ever said was about the likelihood a particular Forbiddance effect being dispelled.

When someone has a rules question, and someone else answers it, your random post about Divine vs Arcane CL and power levels is a non sequitur.

[Sobolev]

I'm sorry, I thought you were saying something coherent about whether or not Forbiddance could be dispelled.  I didn't realize that you were the thousandth monkey and miraculously typed out a couple lines of Shakespeare.

I was talking about the rules, and what the rules have to say about dispelling Forbiddance, because people where coming up with incredibly stupid ideas about how the statement level meant ECL, not CL. Nothing I ever said was about the likelihood a particular Forbiddance effect being dispelled.

When someone has a rules question, and someone else answers it, your random post about Divine vs Arcane CL and power levels is a non sequitur.

Negative, the thread is about preventing scryin' and dyin'.  Arcane vs Divine CL in regards to Forbiddance (the topic at hand) is completely reasonable.

[MalcolmSprye]

I'm sorry, I thought you were saying something coherent about whether or not Forbiddance could be dispelled.  I didn't realize that you were the thousandth monkey and miraculously typed out a couple lines of Shakespeare.

I was talking about the rules, and what the rules have to say about dispelling Forbiddance, because people where coming up with incredibly stupid ideas about how the statement level meant ECL, not CL. Nothing I ever said was about the likelihood a particular Forbiddance effect being dispelled.

When someone has a rules question, and someone else answers it, your random post about Divine vs Arcane CL and power levels is a non sequitur.

Negative, the thread is about preventing scryin' and dyin'.  Arcane vs Divine CL in regards to Forbiddance (the topic at hand) is completely reasonable.

It may have been relevant to the overall topic of the thread, and would have been perfectly useful if you hadn't quoted Kaelik.  Kaelic was responding to my rules question (also relevant to the general topic), about who was allowed to attempt a dispel on the Forbiddance, difficult or not.  Therefore, while your statement was useful to the overall topic, it was un-useful to the point of clarification that you quoted.

[CrimsonDeath]

Everything in the castle is a golem. Everything.

Even the gazebo in the courtyard?

[Sinfire Titan]

Everything in the castle is a golem. Everything.

Even the gazebo in the courtyard?

ESPECIALLY that damn gazebo.

[JaronK]

You guys are so weird. It means Caster level. That is obvious, because you judge whether or not something can be dispelled based on the dispelling ability of the person casting the dispel. Not based on the number of fighter levels they have.

It's the same line as in the Permancey spell, and I've never seen anyone claim that can be dispelled by a Wizard 2/Fighter 20.

When something says level, it does indeed mean character level (which is the same as Effective Character Level, so the big dragon could likely do it), not caster level.  You'd still, of course, need the ability to cast Dispel Magic in the first place, so I'm not sure what you're going on about with this Wizard 2/Fighter 20. 

It's a special rule on those spells that makes them harder to dispel than normal spells.  Claiming that it's "obvious" that they meant something other than they said is all fine and well, but now you're arguing RAI.  RAW, Forbiddence works quite well as a teleportation prevention method, making the kill part of Scry and Die quite difficult (but hardly impossible).

JaronK

[Kaelik]

When something says level, it does indeed mean character level (which is the same as Effective Character Level, so the big dragon could likely do it), not caster level.

It's a special rule on those spells that makes them harder to dispel than normal spells.  Claiming that it's "obvious" that they meant something other than they said is all fine and well,

You are incorrect. When something says level, it means different things, based on what level they are talking about. There is no rule that says "level means Character Level" anywhere in the game, you just assumed it to be the default based on your own assumption.

In fact, since it is specifically talking about dispel magic, and dispel magic explicitly references Caster level, level can be assumed to be a reference to the aforementioned usage of level, instead to some unrelated thing that has nothing to do with the conversation.

There are four different usages of the word level:

1) spell level
2) Character level (or Effective Character level)
3) Caster level
4) Levels in a specific class.

There is no reason to assume that all usages of the word level are referring to 2, and not 1, 3, or 4, other than your own imagination.

But since you make all you rule claims based on your own imagination of the rules, it is not surprising that you think you can just pick one as the default because you like it better.

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

This whole thread is why I love the concepts of high magic DnD. So creative!

[Sinfire Titan]

This whole thread is why I love the concepts of high magic DnD. So creative!

And this is why I hate High-Level Spells: Not enough test playing/editing/EFFING BALANCE.