Author Topic: Swashbuckler Help  (Read 7971 times)

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Novea

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Swashbuckler Help
« on: April 13, 2011, 11:07:47 AM »
Greetings & thank you for reading this in advance,

Starting a new campaign with an idea & need some help.  We get to start at 10th level with 49k of gold to start.  I was planning on going Swashbuckler with some modifications.  Swashbuckler: 6, Fighter: 1, Rogue: 3.  Using the feats Daring Outlaw & Daring Warrior out of the Complete Scoundrel, I can backstab equal level of my swash / rogue levels combined & use fighter feats using my swash / fighter levels.  According to my DM, rapiers are light weapons, so I want to duel wield Rapiers.  We are allowed to take flaws (one / level max). 

You want high Dex, Int & Cha for this build.  Rolled Natural Stats:  14 15 16 17 18 19 (Aka.  House rules.  Roll 4d6 reroll 1 & 2's.  take highest 3.  If you roll 4 of the same die, you get a 19).  With Weapon Finess & Insightful strike (swashy things), My Dex bonus & Int bonus are added for my damage. 

I was thinking of going Gray elf for the +2 dex +2 int -2 str -2 con.  What do you think?  Any help is needed.

GawainBS

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2011, 01:53:51 PM »
If you can alter your levels, I'd go Swash 3/Ftr 1/Rogue rest. Ftr 2 if you need a bonus feat. I think the extra skillpoints are worth more, not to mention UMD as a class skill. I'd avoid Grey Elf, actually, with the CON penalty. Human, as always, is a great choice. If you insist on an Elf, I'd say go for Frost Elf. CHA is actually less needed than CON. (Extra HP & Fort save.)
Take one lvl of Swordsage and get Shadowblade. (Probably the wrong name, I can't remember it.) Try to take this not too early, so that you can select higher lvl manouvres/stances. As long as you're in a Shadow Hand stance, you get DEX to damage with rapiers. Manouvres are good anyway. If you take two levels and your DM rules that Kunfu Genius/Karmendine Monk work with Swordsage, go for that. (Kunfu  Genius is from a Dragon, Karmendine from CoV.)
Alternatively, consider a two level dip in Champion of Correllon Larethian. It requires some crappy feats, but DEX to damage seems to be right up your alley. You might be able to convince your DM to drop/change the Mounted Combat requirement.
Take the Shield of Blades ACF from PHBII and the Arcane Stunt ACF from Complete Mage.

Rejakor

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2011, 02:19:32 PM »
This is why we need a duelist's handbook.

There's a fighter variant called the Hit and Run fighter.  It gets dex to damage against flatfooted opponents.  There's a feat called Shadow Blade in ToB:Bo9S that gives dex to damage when using shadow hand weapons (rapiers, daggers, stuff) in a shadow hand stance (Assassin's Stance, +2d6 SA).  If you take a level of Swordsage (1) at 9th level, you can get Assassin's Stance and take the Shadow Blade feat.  This gets you, along with the fighter level, dex to damage twice.  Swashbuckler 3 gets you int to damage once.  Iaijutsu Focus is a skill from OA that lets you quickdraw weapons in order to do lots of extra d6 damage, and Iaijutsu Master 5 lets you add your cha mod to damage once per extra d6 of damage you do with Iaijutsu Focus.  It sounds like your group has houseruled Weapon Finesse to add dex to damage instead of str to damage, something it normally doesn't do.

Sample Build - Swashbuckler 8/Hit And Run Ftr 1/Swordsage 1 (Assassin's Stance is 2d6 SA - With it, you can take Daring Outlaw, and still get SA from your swash levels).
Assuming 26 dex and 22 int, boots of speed, +2 Shadow Hand rapiers, no other gear
Attacks - +20/+20/+20/+15/+15
Damage(total) - 35d6+120
Damage(individually) - 7d6+22

Wand chamber of wraithstrike, with your fighter feats consider robilar's gambit combo, knockdown/improved trip/great throw/shock trooper(domino rush) combo, etc.  Use ring of blinking to make people flatfooted.

Novea

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2011, 02:31:31 PM »
It sounds like your group has houseruled Weapon Finesse to add dex to damage instead of str to damage, something it normally doesn't do.

I misread the feat.  I was hoping it was the case, but I normally play spellcasters / clerics.  These ideas have given me a LOT to think on.  Our other players are doing a Lasher (dancer using her sash as her whip), Barbarian, Druid/sorcerer and a cleric.

Thank you both for the quick replies.  I would go the Swash 3 / Fighter 1 / Rogue (the rest), but I'm really looking into the multiple attacks.  With the daring warrior, I can add my fighter levels + my swash levels for the fighter feats for 2 hand specialization.  I figured at 14th level, she could possibly have 6 attacks.  I just didn't know if something else would be better though.

lans

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2011, 02:57:36 PM »
He's using a differant feat, that adds dex to damage while in a shadow hand stance.
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ILM

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 03:01:59 PM »
Take one lvl of Swordsage and get Shadowblade.
Pretty sure rapiers aren't on the shadow hand list.

If you can alter your levels, I'd go Swash 3/Ftr 1/Rogue rest. Ftr 2 if you need a bonus feat. I think the extra skillpoints are worth more, not to mention UMD as a class skill. I'd avoid Grey Elf, actually, with the CON penalty. Human, as always, is a great choice. If you insist on an Elf, I'd say go for Frost Elf. CHA is actually less needed than CON. (Extra HP & Fort save.)
I'll agree with that though. You'll lose 1 point of BAB but you're getting more rogue abilities on top of the skill points and stuff. He's also right about you not needing Grey Elf as a race, your stats are already pretty good.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 03:05:01 PM by ILM »

GawainBS

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 03:26:33 PM »
You're right about the rapiers not being on the Shadowhand list. Stupid picture of a drow piercing an elf confused me. Still, Short Swords are just as good, and I'd really use them over Rapiers, just for this feat. Without it, you're pretty much screwed against anything immune to crits, as both Insightful Strike and Sneak Attack don't count.
You get multiple attacks with Swash3/Ftr1/Rogue rest, just as much as full Fighter/Swash.

Novea

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 03:47:32 PM »
I appreciate all the help.  Ya'll have given me a TON to look thorough.  I'll stick with a human & I'm supposed to be the rogue of the group so I will look at both options.  The main reason I wanted to dual wield the rapiers b/c my DM has said that they are light weapons (house rules) so no extra negatives from dual wielding. 

Too many good options :)

Rejakor

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2011, 10:13:17 AM »
Use shortswords, call them rapiers, say they look like rapiers, they are still mechanically shortswords.

Or get your DM to add rapiers to shadow hand weapon lists, why they can't be on both shadow hand and diamond mind lists I do not know.


ILM;  Why wouldn't he go grey elf?  He wants to play a dex and int based character, and grey elves add to both those stats while not penalizing anything important to him.

I have no idea why people are advocating rogue 7.  Why?  He wants to be a duelist, not a rogue.  Swash gets him full sneak attack progression, fighter bonus feats, full BAB, and d10 HD.  He's going to need the feats to set up melee combos, like knockdown+imp. trip or robilar's+dual hit+high sword low axe with an aptitude rapier to sub in for the axe.  Hell, with a pair of aptitude rapiers he could even use Lightning Mace.  12-20 crit range and Lightning Mace isn't half bad.

Golem Strike, Plant Strike, and Grave Strike are all 1st level swift action spells.  You can get wands of them, and the FAQ clarified that swift action spells cast from wands still only take a swift action to use.  You can also get a greater truedeath crystal, or a demolition crystal.  Sadly, nothing will let you sneak attack oozes (I can think of a dozen ways in which to use a weapon more effectively against a jellylike creature... start with /slicing bits off/ instead of /stabbing/, but I guess that doesn't count) but oh well, can't have anything.  When you're up against something you're not ready for/aren't prepared for... smoke bomb, ninja vanish!  Or whip out your bag of explosive runes, toss it, blow a kiss in your enemy's general direction, and detonate it.

Swash base doesn't make the strongest duelist... you can make better just with full swordsage and using maneuvers like greater insightful strike etc.  You can also do it better with a gish, psionic, arcane, or divine base.  But swashbucklers make the most /duelisty/ duelists.  Rogue 7 isn't even better than swash 8+stacking feats, and it's less duelisty.

One thing you might want to look at/ask your GM about is changing the level 2 swordsage ability to key off int instead of wis - dex+int+light armour to AC has some obvious synergies for a duelist.  I'd also ask if you can use the Unarmed Swordsage variant, because being able to punch people is a duelisty thing as well.

If you're supposed to be the 'rogue' of the group, you'll likely need to invest in search and (sigh) maybe even disable device, if your group/GM is hostile to alternate methods of trap removal like using summoned monsters or adamantine light picks.  Elf is nice for that because you don't have to be constantly searching for secret doors allatime.  You've got good enough stats to have a high cha, so you'll have to decide if you want to up your social skills.  Pick up at least tumble, jump, and balance, regardless, as as a duelist you'll get use out of those.  Where possible challenge people to duels.  Preferably in the middle of combat, cause that's just fun.

Novea

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2011, 11:06:08 AM »
Thank you :)  My DM laughed when I showed him what my full character setup was.  Swashbuckler 5, Fighter 1, Rogue 3, SwordSage 1.  I still have to use Short Swords, but calling them rapiers :)  I have 4 attacks a round with 1d6+12 damage without any magical weapons (with swordsage & one feat I add my dex bonus to my int for damage).  My sneak atk is 4d6 b/c from Daring Outlaw & I had enough skillpoints to max out all of the roguish stuff I need.  I'm contemplating going Gray Elf still b/c of the Dex / Int bonus and it would make sense with her story line.

Her flaws are Hallucinations: Helpful & Short Tempered so far.  The board is full with images, so I can't post my image, but... all of the jewelry that she wears was a gift from a boyfriends / fiancees that she left.  If she could have a favored enemy, it would be men in general (yes I know it doesn't work that way).  One shortsword springs up fire, the other springs up frost.  Her attacks are 2d6+13 four times a round with +16 to hit (at 10th level).  It would make sense that she would be a Gray Elf, but for the moment, she's still a human.

Mixster

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2011, 11:41:06 AM »
Consider:
Feat Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Sneak Attack Thug 1/Assassin 1/Feat Rogue +3/Swordsage 1/Feat Rogue +10.
Get Daring Outlaw to have your rogue levels grant sneak attack and you are set for the best of both worlds. 13d6 sneak attack, evenly distributed over the build, shadow hand tricks to damage. And just enough BAB to get 4 attacks.

EDIT:
Also note that the Swashbuckler/Fighter Multi-class feat doesn't give you extra feats, which is why it sucks.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 12:09:28 PM by Mixster »
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Rejakor

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2011, 01:01:37 PM »
Eh?  It doesn't?  That would explain why I don't see it used more.

Still, that build is.. suboptimal.

Something like feat rogue 1/swash 3/hitnrun sneak attack fighter 1/assassin 1/Feat rogue +2/Swordsage 2(or 1)/Invisible Blade 5(free action feint + surprising riposte feat = always flatfooted enemy)/Something 5 (iaijutsu master?).

Why do people keep advocating pure rogue builds?  I know that the level 10 str-draining strike is nice, as are the bonus feats without prereqs, but... isn't it better to get the sneak attack you need via single dips or from classes that also give something else?  (unseen seer, invisible blade)? 

Eh - I guess fighter feat and sneak attack isn't bad.  I dunno.  Don't really like it though.

Novea:  Make sure your party mates buff you appropriately, that attack bonus is low.

Do a google search for the Jack B. Quick fighter build for a few ideas for a twf fighter's feat choices.

Also, be a grey elf.

Are you using both the Shadow Blade feat AND the hit and run fighter alternate class feature, as well as using a +4 dex item and +2 int item in that damage?  Cause if you're not, you should.

RobbyPants

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2011, 01:15:41 PM »
ILM;  Why wouldn't he go grey elf?  He wants to play a dex and int based character, and grey elves add to both those stats while not penalizing anything important to him.
The bonuses are nice, but the Con penalty sucks.  Especially when applied on top of a bunch of d6 HD and a few d8 and d10 Hit Dice for a character looking to spend all day in melee.
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GawainBS

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2011, 01:28:12 PM »
I agree on the Grey Elf: Con penalty hurts, and bonus feat & skill is always nice.

Why Swashbuckler 5? It doesn't grant anything worthwhile.

ILM

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2011, 01:53:42 PM »
ILM;  Why wouldn't he go grey elf?  He wants to play a dex and int based character, and grey elves add to both those stats while not penalizing anything important to him.
Con is hp. Hp is good. Bonus feat is yum. Str penalty hurts on damage (though it's counteracted by the dex bump).

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I have no idea why people are advocating rogue 7.  Why?  He wants to be a duelist, not a rogue.  Swash gets him full sneak attack progression, fighter bonus feats, full BAB, and d10 HD.  He's going to need the feats to set up melee combos, like knockdown+imp. trip or robilar's+dual hit+high sword low axe with an aptitude rapier to sub in for the axe.  Hell, with a pair of aptitude rapiers he could even use Lightning Mace.  12-20 crit range and Lightning Mace isn't half bad.
Well for one, you don't get any extra feats from Daring Warrior. For two, Rogue abilities are pretty handy, so you might actually want that Rogue 10/13/16 - especially with that feat that improves them, I forget the name (depends on access to PrCs of course).

Quote
Golem Strike, Plant Strike, and Grave Strike are all 1st level swift action spells.  You can get wands of them, and the FAQ clarified that swift action spells cast from wands still only take a swift action to use.
Provided you can make a DC20 UMD check, which is only a class skill for Rogues.

Quote
One thing you might want to look at/ask your GM about is changing the level 2 swordsage ability to key off int instead of wis - dex+int+light armour to AC has some obvious synergies for a duelist.
Sure. You could also ask him to make bonus hp based on int rather than con while you're at it. Alternatively, we could stick to the rules.

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If you're supposed to be the 'rogue' of the group, you'll likely need to invest in search and (sigh) maybe even disable device, if your group/GM is hostile to alternate methods of trap removal like using summoned monsters or adamantine light picks.  Elf is nice for that because you don't have to be constantly searching for secret doors allatime.
Rogue is nice too because it gets skill points and the skills are actually on its list. Just saying.

Garryl

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2011, 02:38:16 PM »
Did someone say Int to HP? (Faerie Mysteries Initiate, from Dragon #319)
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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2011, 02:49:59 PM »
Did someone say Int to HP? (Faerie Mysteries Initiate, from Dragon #319)
My bad, I don't use Dragon material. Knock yourself out then :p.

Novea

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2011, 03:24:53 PM »
Reading over everying.  I'm only 10th level with this build (starting level for this campaign.)  The DM will not fudge on rules since he did in our previous campaign & our characters became rather broken.  The ONLY reason I went for the Daring Warrior and Daring Outlaw was b/c of the extra 2 handed weapon profs that you can get using the fighting levels.  at 14th level, I can have 6 attacks where now I can get 4.  My concept was to be a flurry of blades.  If someone could tell me where these... hitnrun sneak attack fighter 1/assassin 1/Feat rogue +2 are found at, I should be able to use them.  The rules are I can use any of the core books & supplements but the only thing homebrewed I can use are flaws.

I haven't given her a name yet, but being a Gray elf with a +4 Dex item and a +2 Int item, she has 2d6+14 4 times a round at 10th level.  If I can make this better with the hitnrun sneak attack fighter & feat rogue, I will.  All the help is appreciated guys & gals!  I don't have to be the main fighter (barbarian), a warlock/lasher, sorcerer/druid and possibly a cleric.  Not too sure about the cleric, so I may have to give up a few things to get a wand for healing.  Use magic device for the win.

GawainBS

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2011, 03:29:02 PM »
As pointed out, Daring Warrior doesn't grant bonus feats, so I fail to see the use in that.
Faerie Mysteries Initiate is a great feat, I admit, but it IS another feat.
Hit & Run Fighter is from Drow of the Underdark, while Feat Rogue is from Unearthed Arcana.

P.S.: To keep things clear, try to use "Two Weapon Fighting" or "Dual Wield" for fighting with two weapons. Two Handed weapons are big weapons which you use with both hands.  ;)

Rejakor

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Re: Swashbuckler Help
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2011, 04:03:13 PM »
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9073.msg305889#msg305889 - A useful resource.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10764.msg367644#msg367644 - advice for a rogue, not a duellist, but you might find it useful.

Reminds me.  This build needs a 1 level dip of barbarian for Pounce(Spirit Lion Totem ACF, Complete Champion), and it needs the Craven feat (Champions of Ruin, -2 to fear saves, can't be made immune to fear, add your level to sneak attack damage).

Feat Rogue is from unearthed arcana.  It's a variant rogue that gets fighter feats instead of sneak attack dice.  Every time you would get +1d6 sneak attack, you instead get 1 feat.  What people are advocating is taking levels of feat rogue, and then using the Daring Outlaw feat to still get sneak attack from them(because it says you add your rogue levels to your swash levels to get your total sneak attack... doesn't say that your rogue levels need to be giving you sneak attack to do that...), so you get both sneak attack and feats from your rogue levels.

Sneak Attack Fighter is a variant fighter that gets.. you guessed it.. sneak attack instead of feats.  It's often used by builds trying to dip lots of 1st levels of sneak attack classes in order to get higher sneak attack.  A sneak attack fighter still gets tower shield and heavy armour proficiency, so you can still trade those away for Hit And Run.  So you can totally have a level of Hit And Run Sneak Attack Fighter.

Feats;  You need;  Weapon Finesse, Darkstalker(Lords of Madness, lets you use your Hide skill to hide from things like tremorsense.. mandatory if you want to hide), Two-Weapon Fighting/Imp. Two Weapon Fighting.

You want;  Craven, A Melee Combo (Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike + Improved Trip + Dual Hit + High Sword Low Axe + Combat Reflexes = Every time an enemy hits you, you get to hit them twice, trip them, and then hit them again.  If you also have Elusive Target, you can totally ignore all their power attack damage, too, so they hit you for piddly weapon damage and you hit them for about 80-100 damage in 3 attacks.)(Knockdown + Imp. Trip = Every time you hit someone you can trip them and get a free attack against them)(etc etc), Staggering Strike (Staggering people for fun and profit!), and probably other stuff i'm not thinking of.

For the love of god, don't get useless feats like Toughness and Weapon Focus.