Author Topic: Any sufficiently prepared Wizard is indistinguishable from an adventuring party  (Read 18942 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
The real question is did you focus on transmutation or conjuration?
Too bad you can't be a changeling double-focused specialist.

Awesome in a can.

Also, to PrC, or not to PrC? That is the question.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Lycanthromancer: How much would an unshrunk adamantium tinfoil hat cost?

Specialization and Build Plan
I focused on Divination going for Red Wizard.  My guys are a TN Human Diviner5/Red Wizard3 and a TN Human Diviner5/Red Wizard 1.  (Once I tally my XP bill for magic item makin', this guy's losing his Red Wizardhood.)

I did this because losing access to 2 schools hurt.  Being my own party means I need backup minions; hence, I kept Necromancy for animate deadCommand undead is also handy.

Offense
My magical offense is mostly a Wand of Evard's black tentacles.

Spell Preps
My spell preps are uncertain.  Spells I NEED or greatly want:

Level 0
-Detect Magic
-Ghost Sound
-Prestidigitation (Keep those robes clean!)

Level 1
-Alarm (Bug, bug, bug, bug my rope trick!)
-Comprehend Languages [Scroll x2 OR my Diviner slots]
-Disguise Self [Hat of Disguise - For planar binding negotiations]
-Grease (beats Epic Golems)
-MAGE ARMOR! [At-Will Command Word Item]
-MAGIC MISSILE! (incorporeal foes, dood!)
-Mount (cheap minion to sacrifice)
-SHIELD! [Continuous Item]
-Silent Image

Level 2
-Alter Self [At-Will Command Word Item - Wizards become Troglodytes for +6 natural AC and animated Undead become Shadows]
-Command Undead (Yes, there are.)
-Glitterdust
-Invisibility [Wand - Avoiding targeting]
-Mirror Image (just in case)
-Resist Energy [Scroll x2]
-ROPE TRICK!
-See Invisibility (fills a Diviner spell slot)
-Web

Level 3
-Arcane Sight (Diviner bonus slot)
-Dispel Magic
-Explosive Runes (My main guy has 400 pages of 96d6 runes.  My cohort purposely fails his dispel magic check.)
-Fly
-Greater Magic Weapon (Convert junk weapons to magical, ghost-hurting shinies for 1 hour/level!)
-Haste
-Leomund's Tiny Hut (Force bunker)
-Magic Circle vs. Evil (keeps the mind control away, and, hey, +2 deflection AC)
-SECRET PAGE! (needed to get 'free' spells)
-SHRINK ITEM! (Adamantium Tinfoil Hat, pre-shrunk boulders)
-Stinking Cloud (Evard's black tentacles companion spell!)
-Tongues (Diviner forced pick)

Level 4
-Arcane Eye (Diviner bonus - I can gather local info!)
-ANIMATE DEAD!
-Dimension Door
-EVARD'S BLACK TENTACLES! [Wand]
-Minor Creation (cover Undead army and their weapons in gallons of Black Lotus Extract)
-POLYMORPH!
-Remove Curse (backup plan)
-Scrying
-Stone Shape
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

ILM

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 123
Questions
Can I use a Ring of Sustenance to rest for 2 hours and prepare spells?
Nope.
Stupid question time: why not?
Quote
Quote
The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.
Sleep for 2 hours (worth 8), then spend 1 hour preparing spells, no?

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Questions
Can I use a Ring of Sustenance to rest for 2 hours and prepare spells?
Nope.
Stupid question time: why not?
Quote
Quote
The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.
Sleep for 2 hours (worth 8), then spend 1 hour preparing spells, no?
"If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells." PHB, p154.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Questions
Can I use a Ring of Sustenance to rest for 2 hours and prepare spells?
Nope.
Stupid question time: why not?
Quote
Quote
The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep.
Sleep for 2 hours (worth 8), then spend 1 hour preparing spells, no?
"If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells." PHB, p154.
He still needs to sleep. So this doesn't apply. It works by RAW.

What about some summon monsters. They can be greatly useful
I'd consider taking black tentacles instead of getting a wand of it.
If you are allowed to create your own items, consider something that can cast Cure Light Wounds on command to get unlimited healing.

Consider having just one of the guys be the undead herder and the other banning necromancy.

Remember you have two spellbooks that you can copy from. So you get more spells. Also if all your minions are level 1 wizards, you can get plenty of level 1 spells with leadership. If your DM allows them to get higher level spells into their spellbook from the 2 per level, all your level 2 minions can grant you 2 spells of any level.

Why do you need Magic Missile for incorporeal? Doesn't tentacles work?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

CrimsonDeath

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 316
    • Email
If you are allowed to create your own items, consider something that can cast Cure Light Wounds on command to get unlimited healing.
Cheapest infinite healing item is an auto-reset Cure Minor Wounds trap.  (May want to do the same thing with Mage Armor and other command items-- pretty sure it's cheaper.)

Why do you need Magic Missile for incorporeal? Doesn't tentacles work?
Tentacles aren't [Force], so I don't think so.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
He still needs to sleep. So this doesn't apply. It works by RAW.
There's also the fact that the time doesn't have to be occupied by sleep to begin with
Quote
The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period.

Also note
Quote
When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

CrimsonDeath

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 316
    • Email
You can prepare spells after resting for one hour in a Fortifying Bedroll (although the 8-hour casting limit still applies).  Note that the bedroll functions once per day, but after using it, you can't use it (or another one) again for 48 hours (meaning that, in general, three characters can share one).

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
One of the benefits of 8 hours of sleep is 8 hours of restful calm.

However, the spells cast within the last 8 hours still count against your daily limit.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

CrimsonDeath

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 316
    • Email
(never mind, misunderstood)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 05:20:44 PM by CrimsonDeath »

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
One of the benefits of 8 hours of sleep is 8 hours of restful calm.
I'd argue against that, since restful calm isn't necessarily sleep-related.  It's just a product of time passing without doing anything - you don't have to be asleep for it to happen.  Just like, say, having a CL 8 enervation cast on you - a ring of sustenance isn't going to make the negative levels wear off with two hours of sleep, even though if you had slept for eight hours you'd no longer have them.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
One of the benefits of 8 hours of sleep is 8 hours of restful calm.
I'd argue against that, since restful calm isn't necessarily sleep-related.  It's just a product of time passing without doing anything - you don't have to be asleep for it to happen.  Just like, say, having a CL 8 enervation cast on you - a ring of sustenance isn't going to make the negative levels wear off with two hours of sleep, even though if you had slept for eight hours you'd no longer have them.
While you can have 8 hours of restful calm without sleep, you cannot have 8 hours of sleep without restful calm. And one of the benefits of the ring is the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, of which restful calm is a part.

Anything that 8 hours of sleep would give you would also be granted by 2 hours of sleep with the ring, with the sole exception that 2 actual hours have passed, so things that rely on the passage of time separate from sleep would not be affected by the ring.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 05:15:25 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

CrimsonDeath

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 316
    • Email
One of the benefits of 8 hours of sleep is 8 hours of restful calm.
I'd argue against that, since restful calm isn't necessarily sleep-related.  It's just a product of time passing without doing anything - you don't have to be asleep for it to happen.  Just like, say, having a CL 8 enervation cast on you - a ring of sustenance isn't going to make the negative levels wear off with two hours of sleep, even though if you had slept for eight hours you'd no longer have them.
While you can have 8 hours of restful calm without sleep, you cannot have 8 hours of sleep without restful calm. And one of the benefits of the ring is the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, of which restful calm is a part.

Anything that 8 hours of sleep would give you would also be granted by 2 hours of sleep with the ring, with the sole exception that 2 actual hours have passed, so things that rely on the passage of time separate from sleep would not be affected by the ring.
When you phrase it that way, it sounds more like eight hours of sleep is a potential benefit of eight hours of restful calm.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
While you can have 8 hours of restful calm without sleep, you cannot have 8 hours of sleep without restful calm. And one of the benefits of the ring is the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, of which restful calm is a part.

Actually, you can have sleep without restful calm.  If you make a skill check in your sleep, for instance.  Like lucid dreaming or listen.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 02:12:53 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Sir Giacomo

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
"If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells." PHB, p154.
He still needs to sleep. So this doesn't apply. It works by RAW.
 

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
I might also add that given the spells he has memorized, it doesn't matter which ruling holds on number of hours sleptRope trick for the win.
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Sir Giacomo

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
Specialization and Build Plan
I focused on Divination going for Red Wizard.  My guys are a TN Human Diviner5/Red Wizard3 and a TN Human Diviner5/Red Wizard 1.  (Once I tally my XP bill for magic item makin', this guy's losing his Red Wizardhood.)

I did this because losing access to 2 schools hurt.  Being my own party means I need backup minions; hence, I kept Necromancy for animate deadCommand undead is also handy.
Offense
My magical offense is mostly a Wand of Evard's black tentacles.

A word of caution: the black tentacles in your case have a grapple check of +16 (level+size+STR 19). This is either below that of most opponents in your CR category (CR7-9) or they have some means to evade it (flying, incorporality for instance).
It may be good to have this spell as a backup in your book, but not as the main offense and definitely not for 25% of your wealth (when using create wand feat and ignoring standard wbl, otherwise the wand costs 21,000)

Spell Preps
My spell preps are uncertain.  Spells I NEED or greatly want:

Level 0
-Detect Magic
-Ghost Sound
-Prestidigitation (Keep those robes clean!)

In case you want to bring your minion along, the message cantrip also helps.

Level 1
-Alarm (Bug, bug, bug, bug my rope trick!)

A bit iffy. The rope trick is non-dimensional, so it is arguable whether this is within the range of the alarm spell. But still useful as backup, in particular due to the long duration.

-Comprehend Languages [Scroll x2 OR my Diviner slots]
Yes. Better than scroll: use a (self-made) wand (cheaper per use).

-Disguise Self [Hat of Disguise - For planar binding negotiations] -Grease (beats Epic Golems) -MAGE ARMOR! [At-Will Command Word Item] -MAGIC MISSILE! (incorporeal foes, dood!)
Yes. A classic.

-Mount (cheap minion to sacrifice) -SHIELD! [Continuous Item] -Silent Image
Most versatile core level 1 spell. Sold.

Level 2
-Alter Self [At-Will Command Word Item - Wizards become Troglodytes for +6 natural AC and animated Undead become Shadows]
-Command Undead (Yes, there are.) -Glitterdust
Very good all-purpose spell.

-Invisibility [Wand - Avoiding targeting]
A wand of this is a good idea. The duration is fairly limited, though. Try to get some continuous camouflage effects to move more unnoticed continuously,  near encounters, and thus be surprised less often.

-Mirror Image (just in case)
OK, but likely prefer to get other 2nd level spells for your prepared spells.

-Resist Energy [Scroll x2]
Again, better to have as a wand (cheaper).

-ROPE TRICK! -See Invisibility (fills a Diviner spell slot)
Yes (best 2nd level divination spell).

-Web
Best core 2nd level offensive/area control spell for dungeons. Thumbs up.
Level 3

-Arcane Sight (Diviner bonus slot) -Dispel Magic
Yes. Prepare one/day.

-Explosive Runes (My main guy has 400 pages of 96d6 runes.  My cohort purposely fails his dispel magic check.) -Fly
Good, if only it were not so short in duration. Better get a flying minion, like a figurine of wondrous power- bronze griffon. 10,000 gp (you cannot yet craft it yourself), but also doubles as a solid fighter (enhance it with your mage armour and possibly other buffs). Or better yet a wand of flying (since it is allowed crafted by yourself at half the cost).

-Greater Magic Weapon (Convert junk weapons to magical, ghost-hurting shinies for 1 hour/level!) -Haste
Good when you want to throw your small army into combat. Inferior to other 3rd level spells just for casters alone.

-Leomund's Tiny Hut (Force bunker) -Magic Circle vs. Evil (keeps the mind control away, and, hey, +2 deflection AC) -SECRET PAGE! (needed to get 'free' spells) -SHRINK ITEM! (Adamantium Tinfoil Hat, pre-shrunk boulders)
Does not work by RAW. And if your DM allows this, he could just say: you win. Yawn.

-Stinking Cloud (Evard's black tentacles companion spell!) -Tongues (Diviner forced pick)
Good (See above).

Level 4

-Arcane Eye (Diviner bonus - I can gather local info!)
-ANIMATE DEAD! -Dimension Door
Yes. Always have one escape pod like this. Would be best if silenced somehow (to be really good in a grapple or pin or paralysis).

-EVARD'S BLACK TENTACLES! [Wand]
See above.

-Minor Creation (cover Undead army and their weapons in gallons of Black Lotus Extract) -POLYMORPH! -Remove Curse (backup plan)
A great spell to have in the book.

-Scrying
See above.

-Stone Shape

PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
He's thinking of that bedroll. Atleast he's participating.
You can prepare spells after resting for one hour in a Fortifying Bedroll (although the 8-hour casting limit still applies).  Note that the bedroll functions once per day, but after using it, you can't use it (or another one) again for 48 hours (meaning that, in general, three characters can share one).
:eh

Are we assuming your DM curb-stomp nerfs higher level spells?
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
I chose the Black Tentacles Wand because my DM prefers humanoidal opponents.  Last time we were here, the group Conjurer would have easily won the place if the DM didn't insta-nerf it.

Alter self is to turn zombies into shadows for scouting, and turn humans into troglodytes.  We rule that transformed humans keep their bonus feat and skills.

Stone shape is to make my own paths as I like.

Explosive runes: I put 16 on a page for 96d6 force damage.  Seemingly, all runes detonate simultaneously.  Will ask DM.

Command undead: I see no CHA check.  Mindless Undead are mine, but mindfuls get a Will save.

Will ask DM about Ring of Sustenance.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 07:50:33 PM by Endarire »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Well, potentially highly controversial issues like item creation costs, material-plane-blindly moving etheral nightmares, RAW-dodging shrink item and secret page uses aside, a major question for Endarire:
When your character and your cohort start out at the beginning of the dungeon at level 8 and 6 respectively, what would be your starting spells learned?
Meanwhile, I'll think on what I would recommend...

- Giacomo

Quote
...highly controversial...

Quote
Quote author=Sir Giacomo

 :lmao :lmao :lmao
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]