Author Topic: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion  (Read 6687 times)

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Talore

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Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« on: April 10, 2011, 03:22:42 AM »
So, I haven't seen this mentioned in any of the ToB threads I've been reading, where people do a ton of confusing multiclassing/etc. to get 9th level maneuvers in all disciplines.

I think I found an easier way to be a master of nine(if nobody noticed this yet). You see, unlike the other ToB prestige classes, in the Maneuvers entry, it says:
Quote
Maneuvers: At each odd-numbered level, you gain two new maneuvers known from any of the nine disciplines. At each even-numbered level, you gain one knew maneuver from any of the nine disciplines...
...At each level, you gain an additional maneuver readied per day.

Which means that Master of Nine is unique in that it's the only PrC which Legacy Champion can increase the maneuvers known/readied. (The only downside is that the stances known call out level 2 and 4 specifically, and therefore can't be progressed further RAW)

This is the simplest of simple builds, but Unarmed Swordsage 7/Master of Nine 5/Legacy Champion 8 (In that order)

IL 19
34 maneuvers known
15(!) maneuvers readied
5 stances (weakness)
22 rounds of dual stance per day
You have a bad-ass legacy weapon

I'm not that adept at figuring out how the hell multiple ToB base classes work with PrCs, but I'm sure someone could make something much scarier than what I have done here.

The main advantages here compared to the other True Master of Nine builds is that you have 15 maneuvers readied from a single initiator class, and that class has all nine disciplines throroughly covered, allowing great versitility. Also, using the Adaptive Stance feat you have as a pre-requisite works really well with White Raven Tactics and/or Moment of Alacrity, allowing you to refresh and swap out maneuvers to be the ultimate swiss army knife of melee in mid-high levels.

The weakness is a lack of high-level stances, which can be mitigated with some creative multiclassing dips at high levels, and generous helpings of the Martial Stance feat. (As an aside, most of the 9th level maneuvers are boring +100 damage maneuvers, and I personally wouldn't care if I couldn't get all of them.)

Like I said, this build is ameteur; this use of Legacy Champion continuing Master of Nine is nodoubt useful and can be abused to greater effect by someone with more experience than I.

So, who wants to get cracking?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 04:08:19 AM by Talore »
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Garryl

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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2011, 04:49:53 AM »
I think that's only 29 maneuvers known, not 34 (12 from Swordsage, another 17 from Mo9/LC). Also note that some interpretations of IL give 1.5 ILs on the Legacy Champion levels that improve an existing class (1 level for the progressed class, and 1/2 level for having a non-initiating class level). That would give you another 3 IL.

Splashing in some Warblade or Crusader can give you a few more maneuvers known and a little more versatility at the cost of an initiator level. You can also go Idiot Crusader to have one round, automatic refreshing of up to 14 of your maneuvers. A type 2 Idiot Crusader (maneuvers taken with other classes so they can't be learned at an early Crusader level) can get 14 maneuvers granted, alongside whatever else you get from your Warblade and Swordsage levels. For example, Warblade 3/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 1/Bloodclaw Master 1/Mo9 5/Legacy Champion 8 (not in that order) gets 32 maneuvers known, 14 granted (2 of which are 1st-level DS maneuvers if you can't spare a feat or two at levels 1-3), ILs of 17/17/18 for Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade, and whatever else your Warblade and Swordsage levels give you. Feel free to adjust the balance of Swordsage and Warblade levels as you see fit. SSN and BcM levels are to keep your IL up for the different classes. It's very important that you take no more than one level of Crusader, though.
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McPoyo

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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2011, 11:24:04 AM »
Another thing people forget is that stances count for prerequisites for maneuvers. It's doable without a lot of weird shuffling.
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nijineko

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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2011, 01:06:38 PM »
interesting. this has some potential.
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Talore

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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2011, 03:27:54 PM »
Yeah, I slept on it, and figured that Crusader would be a better thing to progress with Master of Nine, since it means +11 prepared maneuvers and +11 granted maneuvers, which is a huge difference. I'm stil not good at figuring out multiclassing, but Crusader 6/Swordsage 1 would probably be better than Swordsage 7, as Crusader has the superior recovery mechanic, and the swordsage dip means that you can always have Sudden leap and the Reflex-> Concentration and Will-> Concentration maneuvers ready to use, plus I'd probably grab another swordsage level near the end to round up crusader initiator level while grabbing a high-level stance.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2011, 04:31:46 PM »
I always figured you can't double up like that. For instance, MoN (or any other ToB-PrC) granted maneuvers are their own progression, having a martial level before hand simply allows you to use that IL and that class's recovery method.

The same arguments saying Legacy Champion, despite being an IL adding class, can apply to every ToB-PrC as well.

Edit - Spellchecked.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 07:04:06 PM by SorO_Lost »
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4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2011, 04:39:57 PM »
It's like using legacy champion to advance, say, psion. It advances manifesting, so it's considered a psionic class when it does.

[edit] What happens if you use legacy champion to advance war hulk? Medium BAB and lots of Str?
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2011, 05:19:45 PM »
Bloodline X 2 or 3 / Uncanny Trickster 2 or 3 / Legacy Champ 2+

Bloodline counts up some of the level based stuff,
and interacts with UT and LC, to get ahead.
Say like Lurk 4 / Blood 3 / UT 2 / LC 2 gets to Lurk 15 on some stuff.

I've had no access to ToB, or idea how ILs interact with the above.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2011, 07:11:05 PM »
Bloodline X 2 or 3 / Uncanny Trickster 2 or 3 / Legacy Champ 2+

Bloodline counts up some of the level based stuff,
and interacts with UT and LC, to get ahead.
Say like Lurk 4 / Blood 3 / UT 2 / LC 2 gets to Lurk 15 on some stuff.

I've had no access to ToB, or idea how ILs interact with the above.

By default, Martial Class (crusader/swordsage/warblade) levels + 1/2 all others = IL. Also in the case of PrCs it states most PrCs add their full level for your IL. You can quote out of context to say Warshaper is a full IL advancer on top of saying since it isn't a Martial Class you still get to add it to the 1/2 figure.

However, if you play using a bit of common sense. The most PrCs applies in context of the PrCs in the book which note they advance IL. And also when a PrC says +1 to existing class you should count as that. IE that +1 level in legacy works like +1 in warblade, no +1.5 factor since it for all intents and purposes the level counts as a warblade level for advancement.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2011, 07:26:52 PM »
While it definitely shouldn't be Swordsage, I think using Crusader isn't necessarily better than Warblade.  In either case you're going to need a Swordsage dip to pick up the requisite maneuvers, so it comes down to having the maneuver you want vs. not having to spend actions to recover.  Since a Martial Adept's most damaging attack is still a full attack, I'm inclined to think that you're better off with the Warblade.

Littha

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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2011, 08:35:07 PM »
You don't need a Swordsage dip, it helps because of the improved unarmed strike prereq but you can get in with Crusader/Warblade. Actually you could get in with just Warblade if you had enough feats (for 2 extra manuvers).

you only need 6 diciplines:
Devoted Spirit (Crusader)
Diamond Mind (Warblade)
Iron Heart (Warblade)
Stone Dragon (Both)
Tiger Claw (Warblade)
White Raven (Both)

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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2011, 08:41:43 PM »
You don't need a Swordsage dip, it helps because of the improved unarmed strike prereq but you can get in with Crusader/Warblade. Actually you could get in with just Warblade if you had enough feats (for 2 extra manuvers).

you only need 6 diciplines:
Devoted Spirit (Crusader)
Diamond Mind (Warblade)
Iron Heart (Warblade)
Stone Dragon (Both)
Tiger Claw (Warblade)
White Raven (Both)
Well true, but Swordsage is, IMO, a much better class to dip with in ToB.  More known maneuvers gets you more pre-reqs in the overlapping disciplines and higher-level maneuvers out of the Swordsage itself.  The IUS bonus feat is gravy.

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Re: Master of Nine + Legacy Champion
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2011, 11:03:03 PM »
[edit] What happens if you use legacy champion to advance war hulk? Medium BAB and lots of Str?
Pretty much.  Almost as good as gestalt.