Author Topic: Shapeshift Ranger in World's Largest Dungeon  (Read 6560 times)

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Shapeshift Ranger in World's Largest Dungeon
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2011, 07:10:22 PM »
from the d20srd about variant abilities:

Quote
These variants simply swap one or more of that class's features for one or more class features of another class. A class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects, except as noted below....


shapeshifting is an acf, says so on page 39 of the PHBII. thus it would normally be subject to the unearthed arcana rules. however, it specifically implies in the description that you can shapeshift earlier: "at 4th level, you gain mobility as a bonus feat whenever you are in predator form...." not only does this imply that you can shapeshift at 4th level, it implies earlier.

this would be a case of the specific description of the shapeshift acf overriding the general rule in the ua.

so, now that i've actually read the original text, i have to agree that using the ranger wildshape acf, and then stacking the druid shapeshifting acf, is a sweet workaround way to get changing early.

i see that it will qualify for warshaper after all then, if not for wildshape requiring prestiges. so i stand corrected.

nice.
Thing is, druids give up their animal companion at level 1, whereas rangers give them up several levels later. And thus you couldn't even take the ACF until then.
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nijineko

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Re: Shapeshift Ranger in World's Largest Dungeon
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2011, 07:15:18 PM »
quite so. thank you for that correction. that would put it at level... 4? at the earliest then, right? that's what i get for going off of memory when posting, instead of looking it up. lazy me. sorry about that. *^^*
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McPoyo

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Re: Shapeshift Ranger in World's Largest Dungeon
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2011, 07:18:43 PM »
ACF's don't care when you give it up, only A) that you can give it up, and B) that you choose to take the ACF at the prereq level. If you don't have the ability to remove the class feature ( class variant, already traded it for another, etc), then it is an illegal choice for an ACF because you have nothing to trade to get the new thing. The only "prereq" is level the ACF is selected at. Shapeshift is selectable at First as a variant if your class features include an animal companion feature and a wildshape feature, both of which are on a Wildshape variant Ranger's list of class abilities. If it was important you have the feature at the level you take the ACF, then Druid's couldn't take shapeshift because they don't get Wildshape until 5th. If the ACF had a dual tier prereq of "Animal companion at first, wildshape at 5th", then I would agree about late entry for rangers, but it doesn't.
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Benly

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Re: Shapeshift Ranger in World's Largest Dungeon
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2011, 09:12:03 PM »
ACF's don't care when you give it up, only A) that you can give it up, and B) that you choose to take the ACF at the prereq level. If you don't have the ability to remove the class feature ( class variant, already traded it for another, etc), then it is an illegal choice for an ACF because you have nothing to trade to get the new thing. The only "prereq" is level the ACF is selected at. Shapeshift is selectable at First as a variant if your class features include an animal companion feature and a wildshape feature, both of which are on a Wildshape variant Ranger's list of class abilities. If it was important you have the feature at the level you take the ACF, then Druid's couldn't take shapeshift because they don't get Wildshape until 5th. If the ACF had a dual tier prereq of "Animal companion at first, wildshape at 5th", then I would agree about late entry for rangers, but it doesn't.

But Shapeshift doesn't have a listed prereq level for rangers. If you extrapolate what its prereq level for rangers would be on the basis of other abilities where a prerequisite ability given up is granted to different classes at different levels, you'll find that almost invariably, when multiple classes are written up in an ACF, each class's level for the ACF is the earliest level they get that feature at. Uncanny Dodge ACFs are traded at different levels for rogues and barbarians, and Turn Undead ACFs are traded at different levels for paladins and clerics - in fact, even existing ACFs for animal companion are at first level for druid and fourth for ranger. Since this is an ACF that trades in animal companion and which the druid acquires at the same level it acquires animal companion, the most logical conclusion seems to me that a ranger would also get to trade for it at the level he would normally acquire animal companion.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Shapeshift Ranger in World's Largest Dungeon
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2011, 09:24:08 PM »
Funny how, with the sole exception of BAB, druids are better than rangers in every conceivable way, even the variants.

I guess BAB really is horrifically overpowered. [/snark]
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
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[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Shapeshift Ranger in World's Largest Dungeon
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2011, 09:57:52 PM »
Actually, if you want to take it that strictly, Rangers can't take it at all :P
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Benly

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Re: Shapeshift Ranger in World's Largest Dungeon
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2011, 10:27:37 PM »
Actually, if you want to take it that strictly, Rangers can't take it at all :P

Yes, strictly speaking they can't. So what I am doing here is extrapolating the most logical level for them to take it at for houserule purposes. Going from the example of other ACFs that trade out features available at varying levels to varying classes, the result is making it a level 4 ACF. That is all I have claimed here.

From a balance standpoint, there's no harm in making it a level 1 ACF, but it's not the most logical extrapolation from how other ACFs work.

Havok4

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Re: Shapeshift Ranger in World's Largest Dungeon
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2011, 04:07:57 AM »
It would be fine at level 1 from a balance standpoint, but you are creating house rules to give it to rangers at all.