Author Topic: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!  (Read 7184 times)

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Caelic

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Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« on: April 06, 2011, 10:00:48 PM »
Heya, folks.

Well, after years of my DM pestering me, I'm going to do it: I'm going to play a straight, vanilla fighter with a longsword and shield.

The thing is: I want him to actually be somewhat useful, and this is a level 16 campaign.  So here's what I'm thinking:

The party is large, and already has two solid damage-dealing front line fighters.  The only problem is that they can dish it out, but have a hard time taking it; their ACs just aren't high enough. 

Thus, my character. He's going to be a classic "Shield-man," the guy who kept blows off his lord's back in various historical cultures.  Offensively, frankly, he's going to SUCK--I don't expect him to ever hit for any significant damage.

Defensively, though, I want to see if I can flout the conventional wisdom that AC is meaningless at higher levels.

At the moment, I know the character's going to have the following feats:

Combat Expertise
Improved Combat Expertise (CW)
Allied Defense (Shining South)
Shieldmate (MHB)
Improved Shieldmate (MHB)

Those form the core of the build.  He'll also probably have the following:

Shield Wall (HoB)
Shield Specialization
Shield Ward
Elusive Attack (PHB2)

...and maybe the following:

Titan Fighting (RoS)
Phalanx Fighting (CW)


Now, the question is: how to optimize this?  With the rough setup I have above, I'm going to be running at about a 70 AC most of the time, and giving the other front-line fighters a +16 dodge bonus to AC (plus a +3 shield bonus if they don't already have a shield bonus, but I think both of them do.)  I'll also be trying to get them to master the Wall of Steel maneuver, which will let me add my shield bonus of +10 to one of them at need.

Not glamorous, not exciting, but useful--I like to think of him as a sort of reverse bard, buffing defense instead of offense.

The question is: how can I take it to the next level?  A +16-+19 to AC is nice, but surely I can do better.

dantheman

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2011, 10:18:01 PM »
Protection Devotion, from the complete champion, offers a scaling sacred bonus (+6 at 16) to AC to you and every ally within 30 ft.  Lasts for a minute too, so it should last the whole fight.  It's only once per day though, unless you take it multiple times.

Rebel7284

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2011, 10:21:51 PM »
A bunch of martial study/stance feats would help.
for more AC, +1 Defending armor/shield spikes with greater magic weapon cast on them.  Ask if the unnamed bonus stacks and if yes, add spikes to everything.

Ultimately though, why now? at level 16?  So many fun possibilities out of the window.

Also, are you planning to optimize your race at all?
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2011, 10:25:38 PM »
Make a gay fighter. 50% miss chance due to Prismatic concealment?
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Caelic

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2011, 11:19:39 PM »
A bunch of martial study/stance feats would help.
for more AC, +1 Defending armor/shield spikes with greater magic weapon cast on them.  Ask if the unnamed bonus stacks and if yes, add spikes to everything.


Well, the thing is: I don't particularly need more AC personally; what I want to do is up the bonus I give to the other players.  The whole purpose of the character is to make the rest of the group better; I don't care HOW much I, personally, suck at doing anything on an individual basis.


Quote
Ultimately though, why now? at level 16?  So many fun possibilities out of the window.


To be perfectly honest, it's because:

1. The rest of the group isn't particularly good at optimization.
2. For once, I don't want to be the most powerful character.
3. I'm deliberately going out of my way to handicap myself as much as possible by focusing on optimizing sub-optimal strategies: namely, straight fighter with no prestige class and trying to win the AC race.


Quote
Also, are you planning to optimize your race at all?



To a moderate level.  I don't particularly like playing phrenic half-ooze minotaurs, but I'm probably going to go with a whisper gnome.

Surreal

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2011, 11:38:15 PM »
Might as well toss on Dragonborn or the appropriate dragonblooded race, then take the Dragonhusk alt class feature. You get some decent armor that scales with level, but mostly it frees up a good chunk of WBL to spend on other things.
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dark_samuari

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2011, 11:42:50 PM »
First of all, I feel I should plug this baby...

But regarding what you may be going for the most important thing is going to be focusing on your niche field. You should be aiming at defending the mage or other casters because frankly the defender archetype is only good when in groups. It is very hard to maintain importance in battles when enemies can simple go around you (and they will, easily...).

So with that said there are some things to keep your eyes on:

1. Versatility. You should be looking towards opening up different options for yourself in battle. I know you are interested in a lot of defense-minded feats but you have to remember that eventually bonuses to AC become trivial. You want a sizable defense but not at the sacrifice of options in combat. Feats that give unique uses for shields (shield bashing comes to mind) or tripping come up as possible ideas. Draconic aura (vigor) is another one that may not jump straight out at you but will become invaluable. Knowledge Devotion is another feat that can give your character a solid use outside of combat while also boosting your attack bonus (which will be featuring a heavy penalty). In the end you need teamwork to make this type of character viable in any campaign (especially one in the higher levels).

Also, if you are going straight fighter I might recommend looking at a great deal of alternate class features. The Zhentarim Fighters substitution levels from Champions of Valor are a necessity, there is no argument there. Dungeoncrasher is another one that gives you a greater sense of utility when you are kicking down doors and flinging enemies back with your shield.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2011, 11:48:05 PM by dark_samuari »

skydragonknight

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2011, 03:51:22 AM »
Combine with tripping (you're already taking combat expertise!) to add a little BFC to the mix. I highly suggest taking Martial Study and stance a couple times since there are good Crusader maneuvers that fit this concept.
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juton

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2011, 12:58:12 PM »
I'll also plung my handbook : http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10232.0

If you are trying to keep it toned down I recommend some of the shield feats from PHB2. Specifically the Robilar's Gambit + Active Shield Defense combo, it will increase your damage output, should increase your AC and you can turn it on or off, so it's great if you don't want to overshadow your party. Also the Shield Slam + Shield Charge combo is pretty good, it gives you something else to do besides attack for HP damage. Lastly picking up Shield Ward or Parrying Shield may be worth it at that level, since touch AC really matters and Fighters don't have a lot of ways to boost it normally.

Unbeliever

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2011, 02:44:39 PM »
I agree w/ Juton.  Also, a friend of mine had great effects w/ the double damage fighter variant, I think in PHB II. Overwhelming Attack or whatever it is, plus some Robilar's Gambit.  He also made it a point to pick things that stymied enemy's special attacks that would take him effectively out of the fight -- stuff like Close Quarters Fighting and Hold the Line.  That combined w/ the Shield Ward style of feats made him fairly invincible from attacks that were both mundane and not. 

I can try and dig up his actual build -- it was for a high-powered 16th level game w/ LA buyback -- if you like. 

Ithamar

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2011, 03:14:30 PM »
Needs Imp. Shield Bash and those feats from CW that let you stun and trip someone with a shield bash.  Wield the shield two-handed of course.
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2011, 04:23:43 PM »
Lastly picking up Shield Ward or Parrying Shield may be worth it at that level, since touch AC really matters and Fighters don't have a lot of ways to boost it normally.
If you're worried about touch AC, there's also Deflective Armor.  You say you're not psionic?  That's what Wild Talent is for.  (This advice is, of course, for if you've completely run out of feats you want to take.)

Needs Imp. Shield Bash and those feats from CW that let you stun and trip someone with a shield bash.  Wield the shield two-handed of course.
He said he wanted to go sword-and-board, so maybe Agile Shield Fighter?  And of course you'll want a bashing spiked heavy shield.

Caelic

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2011, 07:29:47 PM »
Again, my own AC isn't likely to be a problem; at the moment, the touch AC is a 60 or so, the base AC is about 15 points higher, and the opponents are seldom packing a BAB above 40.

What I really need to do here is the following (in order of priority):

1. Maximize my ability to increase the defenses of the rest of the party.
2. Maximize my ability to hinder or harm the enemy while increasing the defenses of the rest of the party (which, in most cases, will mean I'm taking a -16 penalty to my attacks.)

Touch attack based strategies are a good plan, since I'll have a reasonable chance of hitting even with the penalty; however, opposed attack rolls will be problematic due to said penalty.

If I hadn't already committed to straight vanilla fighter, I'd be inclined to take the one PrC from Shining South...argh.  What's it called?  The Halruuan bodyguard, the one that can deflect attacks with a reflex save and gets attacks of opportunity when someone attacks his charge.  Couple THAT with Overwhelming Attack and you have some fun times ahead.

skydragonknight

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2011, 10:52:23 PM »
Again, my own AC isn't likely to be a problem; at the moment, the touch AC is a 60 or so, the base AC is about 15 points higher, and the opponents are seldom packing a BAB above 40.

What I really need to do here is the following (in order of priority):

1. Maximize my ability to increase the defenses of the rest of the party.
2. Maximize my ability to hinder or harm the enemy while increasing the defenses of the rest of the party (which, in most cases, will mean I'm taking a -16 penalty to my attacks.)

Touch attack based strategies are a good plan, since I'll have a reasonable chance of hitting even with the penalty; however, opposed attack rolls will be problematic due to said penalty.

If I hadn't already committed to straight vanilla fighter, I'd be inclined to take the one PrC from Shining South...argh.  What's it called?  The Halruuan bodyguard, the one that can deflect attacks with a reflex save and gets attacks of opportunity when someone attacks his charge.  Couple THAT with Overwhelming Attack and you have some fun times ahead.

So my tripping suggestion still stands. After all, you're already taking Combat Expertise.
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Rebel7284

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2011, 11:22:22 AM »
Goliath or Half Giant seem like nice additions if tripping is involved.  Hurray for poweful build.  Half Giant even gives you the psionic subtype.
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Mixster

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2011, 12:10:41 PM »
Goliath or Half Giant seem like nice additions if tripping is involved.  Hurray for poweful build.  Half Giant even gives you the psionic subtype.

Or half-minotaur :).

Half-Minotaur Half-Giant with Jotunbrud and Touchstone (the sandstorm version) can give you a colossal sword to deal a lot more damage. And allows you to trip better with your shield.
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2011, 06:39:08 PM »
Goliath or Half Giant seem like nice additions if tripping is involved.  Hurray for poweful build.  Half Giant even gives you the psionic subtype.

Or half-minotaur :).

Half-Minotaur Half-Giant with Jotunbrud and Touchstone (the sandstorm version) can give you a colossal sword to deal a lot more damage. And allows you to trip better with your shield.

Last time I looked (don't have any FR books in front of me), Jotunbrud was Human-only and explicitly treats you as Large for certain purposes when that's beneficial, so to even try that you'd need Human Heritage (RoD) and even then it may not help you.

Don't suppose there's any chance of snagging Brilliant Energy weapons?  There's also Emerald Razor (you could get it on an item).  You could also burn some Martial Study feats on Shield Block and Defensive Rebuke, and pick up Martial Stance: Iron Guard's Glare.  Since you have Combat Expertise, there's always Improved Feint, if you think you can get your Bluff high enough that enemies won't laugh at it.

SneeR

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2011, 09:31:08 PM »
I'm not nearly as skilled a CO as the rest of these guys, but I see a major flaw with your strategy. You need to act as a one-man wall. A wall is not one square. No matter how high your AC is, enemies can still walk right past you, especially if you are taking -16 to your attack despite Combat Reflexes.

I, being the less than superiror CO I am, would suggest a reach weapon. Unfortunately, most Reach weapons are two-handed, sacrificing your shield, so there's that. Your plan to give some AC bonus to your allies is great as it negates the self-centered AC pole problem, but it will require a multitude of obscure feats.

The way I see it, if you want to give your allies crazy AC and therefore gimp yourself somewhat so you don't shine so directly, play a cleric. You can dump all your spells buffing your friends, use Divine Power to still get the bonus from Combat Expertise if it's so important, and DMM Persist Lesser Vigor to never need to heal.

But I'm sorry if this post is annoying, just throwing in my 2cp. I realize the point is to stay pure fighter. Good luck; can't help you there. :shrug
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I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2011, 10:56:54 PM »
I'm not nearly as skilled a CO as the rest of these guys, but I see a major flaw with your strategy. You need to act as a one-man wall. A wall is not one square. No matter how high your AC is, enemies can still walk right past you, especially if you are taking -16 to your attack despite Combat Reflexes.

I, being the less than superiror CO I am, would suggest a reach weapon. Unfortunately, most Reach weapons are two-handed, sacrificing your shield, so there's that. Your plan to give some AC bonus to your allies is great as it negates the self-centered AC pole problem, but it will require a multitude of obscure feats.

The way I see it, if you want to give your allies crazy AC and therefore gimp yourself somewhat so you don't shine so directly, play a cleric. You can dump all your spells buffing your friends, use Divine Power to still get the bonus from Combat Expertise if it's so important, and DMM Persist Lesser Vigor to never need to heal.

But I'm sorry if this post is annoying, just throwing in my 2cp. I realize the point is to stay pure fighter. Good luck; can't help you there. :shrug
Psychic warrior gets almost as many (and better!) bonus feats, and has awesomely awesome powers to back him up. Expansion is better than Enlarge Persian Person, and with the Linked Power feat and a swift-action manifested power you don't even have to sacrifice your actions to buff.

A half-minotaur psychic warrior 1 with Expansion and a reach weapon has, what, a 30' reach?
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[/spoiler]

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Straight fighter with Allied Defense--could use suggestions!
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2011, 11:04:45 PM »
I'm not nearly as skilled a CO as the rest of these guys, but I see a major flaw with your strategy. You need to act as a one-man wall. A wall is not one square. No matter how high your AC is, enemies can still walk right past you, especially if you are taking -16 to your attack despite Combat Reflexes.
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