Author Topic: Eberron giant-themed anima mage  (Read 18222 times)

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spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2011, 12:31:10 AM »
I disagree but it's your thread.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #81 on: April 13, 2011, 01:02:04 AM »
I disagree but it's your thread.
Whether it's my thread or not is irrelevant. If you haven't noticed, you're pretty much alone in your opinion. The facts are clear: your interpretation is arguably not grammatically correct and has very little support in the rules. It entirely hinges upon reading one sentence out of an entire section in a way that is counter intuitive and has no precedence in the rules.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #82 on: April 13, 2011, 05:31:30 AM »
I disagree but it's your thread.
Whether it's my thread or not is irrelevant. If you haven't noticed, you're pretty much alone in your opinion. The facts are clear: your interpretation is arguably not grammatically correct and has very little support in the rules. It entirely hinges upon reading one sentence out of an entire section in a way that is counter intuitive and has no precedence in the rules.

I'm not alone in my opinion, but if I were it would not make me incorrect. A new rule that is an exception to the basic rule will pretty much never have support or precendent. As to being counter intuitive, I find it counter intuitive for an author to include a sentence which says his new class levels don't add to character level the way a normal class level does unless that's what he means. I also think its a ridiculous contortion of the rules to interpret that sentence to mean normal class levels add to a class level counter by providing benefits, which is the alternate position.

As to being grammatically correct, ask anyone who does not play dnd to read that one sentence, then ask them if bloodline levels add to character level based only on that sentence. It's absolutely grammatically correct to say x doesn't do y the way z does, but you do get w from it.

The author said it does not raise character level the way a normal class level does. For that to mean it does raise character level, it needs to do it differently. If bloodline levels and normal class levels both raise character level by 1, they're raising character level in exactly the same way, not differently. That would make the sentence untrue. If one raises character level and the other does not, that would make the sentence true.

A claim that character level is increased by receiving the benefits of a class level is not supported by any rule I know of, and has no precedent outside of hit dice, which a bloodline level does not grant.

X-Codes

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #83 on: April 13, 2011, 05:34:49 AM »
I disagree but it's your thread.
Whether it's my thread or not is irrelevant. If you haven't noticed, you're pretty much alone in your opinion. The facts are clear: your interpretation is arguably not grammatically correct and has very little support in the rules. It entirely hinges upon reading one sentence out of an entire section in a way that is counter intuitive and has no precedence in the rules.
Arguably incorrect in a grammatical sense.  Totally ass-backwards in a logical sense.

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #84 on: April 13, 2011, 06:28:47 AM »
As to being grammatically correct, ask anyone who does not play dnd to read that one sentence, then ask them if bloodline levels add to character level based only on that sentence.
Two problems with that idea.  First, someone who doesn't play D&D won't understand the significance of a lot of what's going on in that sentence or how those terms interrelate.  It'd be like asking a chef something about particle physics.  Second, that single sentence doesn't encapsulate the entirety of the way bloodline levels behave.  If it did, the authors wouldn't have written anything else.

The author said it does not raise character level the way a normal class level does. For that to mean it does raise character level, it needs to do it differently.
True.

If bloodline levels and normal class levels both raise character level by 1, they're raising character level in exactly the same way, not differently.
False.

You brought up the glossary earlier.  Check out Hit Dice (bold mine):

"In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of hit dice of creatures."

Then crack open the Monster Manual and check out Effective Character Level in the glossary (bold mine):
"A character's ECL is the sum of its hit dice and level adjustment."

So from this, it looks like your character level is normally equal to your hit dice, and normal class levels increase your character level by adding hit dice (or at least add hit dice in the process of increasing character level).  Bloodline levels don't add hit dice, so if they increase character level, it is decidedly not "the way a normal class does", which involves adding hit dice.

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #85 on: April 13, 2011, 07:21:52 AM »
As to being grammatically correct, ask anyone who does not play dnd to read that one sentence, then ask them if bloodline levels add to character level based only on that sentence.
Two problems with that idea.  First, someone who doesn't play D&D won't understand the significance of a lot of what's going on in that sentence or how those terms interrelate.  It'd be like asking a chef something about particle physics.  Second, that single sentence doesn't encapsulate the entirety of the way bloodline levels behave.  If it did, the authors wouldn't have written anything else.

The sentence is fairly simple, no external knowledge is needed to parse it. The sentence is the only sentence in the entire bloodline section that instructs on how bloodline levels affect character level, so it has to stand on its own. If it does not instruct on how bloodline levels affect character level, it would not be there, since by default class levels do raise character level and provide a benefit. It isn't a double negative confirmation of business as usual.

The author said it does not raise character level the way a normal class level does. For that to mean it does raise character level, it needs to do it differently.
True.

If bloodline levels and normal class levels both raise character level by 1, they're raising character level in exactly the same way, not differently.
False.

You brought up the glossary earlier.  Check out Hit Dice (bold mine):

"In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of hit dice of creatures."

Then crack open the Monster Manual and check out Effective Character Level in the glossary (bold mine):
"A character's ECL is the sum of its hit dice and level adjustment."

So from this, it looks like your character level is normally equal to your hit dice, and normal class levels increase your character level by adding hit dice (or at least add hit dice in the process of increasing character level).  Bloodline levels don't add hit dice, so if they increase character level, it is decidedly not "the way a normal class does", which involves adding hit dice.

Character levels and hit dice are only synonymous in one situation, for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of hit dice of creatures."

Character level is defined. It is not a count of hit dice, it is a count of levels.

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #86 on: April 13, 2011, 07:48:38 AM »
Name another situation where character level matters.  (And it's not for gaining XP or levels.  That's effective character level.)

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2011, 08:19:05 AM »
Had some fun with google, didn't even take 15 minutes.

Andy Collins, one of the authors of UA, apparently originated the bloodlines idea in one of his campaigns, and has discussed bloodlines on the intertubes.

http://gameschat19968.yuku.com/topic/2348

Quote
Hi Andy, I was unsure whether a Bloodline level counts for the level requirements for a feat (1 feat per 3 levels) and an ability stat increase (1 ability point increase per 4 levels)?

For example, an 11th level fighter with a minor earth elemental bloodline takes his Bloodline level at 12th. Would he gain the standard feat and ability increase due at 12th level?

Quote
Page 19: "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits."

I'd say no feat.

That said, it wouldn't be unbalanced for a DM to give out feats as if bloodline levels were character levels.
Andy Collins
Senior Designer
Wizards of the Coast Roleplaying R&D

You're level 11, you take a bloodline class level, and the author wouldn't give you the character level 12 feat. He does not consider bloodline levels character levels.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #88 on: April 13, 2011, 11:41:15 AM »
Interesting find. Goes to show you that the designers know jack-shit about how abusive bloodlines can be, and how maximum skill ranks can be abused (Epic spells at 18, anyone?).
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #89 on: April 13, 2011, 11:55:02 AM »
I don't know, Collins has ruled I direct contradictions before, in the "book says cannot", "he days can" way. Ill go with that tjoufh
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #90 on: April 13, 2011, 03:33:59 PM »
Interesting find. Goes to show you that the designers know jack-shit about how abusive bloodlines can be, and how maximum skill ranks can be abused (Epic spells at 18, anyone?).
Yes, very interesting.  He says that in his campaign everyone got a bloodline for free, and the rules weren't written until his game was nearly over.

I also suspect the rules were written before most of the abuses were so abusive.

However, when someone mentioned bloodline levels were similar to LA, he didn't mention anything about your ECL staying the same after you take a bloodline level, which seems like a pretty big oversight when he's so concerned about skill checks falling behind the curve.

mthor

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #91 on: April 17, 2011, 02:52:41 AM »
No hard feelings anyone? I haven't been on over the last week and I didn't realize how much of a commotion I started.
The god of thunder....... yeah I'm the hammer

Just ask yourself..... W.W.T.D  what would Thor do
mthor, look what you did. You made people on the internet argue. We all hate you with a fiery passion, now. :P

McPoyo

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #92 on: April 17, 2011, 10:47:45 AM »
mthor, look what you did. You made people on the internet argue. We all hate you with a fiery passion, now.

:P
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

X-Codes

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #93 on: April 17, 2011, 04:39:08 PM »
mthor, look what you did. You made people on the internet argue. We all hate you with a fiery passion, now.

:P
I just hate idiots with a fiery passion, and mthor didn't say anything particularly stupid to touch this off.

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #94 on: April 17, 2011, 06:04:53 PM »
I just hate idiots with a fiery passion

I don't mind idiots much, get them angry and they can be downright amusing.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #95 on: April 17, 2011, 06:57:07 PM »
I just hate idiots with a fiery passion

I don't mind idiots much, get them angry and they can be downright amusing.
It's a good thing nobody really gets angry about something like this.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

X-Codes

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #96 on: April 17, 2011, 07:32:13 PM »
I just hate idiots with a fiery passion

I don't mind idiots much, get them angry and they can be downright amusing.
Not really.  The ones that think they're clever are just plain irritating.

TheAbyssDragon

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #97 on: April 17, 2011, 08:18:26 PM »
Had some fun with google, didn't even take 15 minutes.

Andy Collins, one of the authors of UA, apparently originated the bloodlines idea in one of his campaigns, and has discussed bloodlines on the intertubes.

http://gameschat19968.yuku.com/topic/2348

Quote
Hi Andy, I was unsure whether a Bloodline level counts for the level requirements for a feat (1 feat per 3 levels) and an ability stat increase (1 ability point increase per 4 levels)?

For example, an 11th level fighter with a minor earth elemental bloodline takes his Bloodline level at 12th. Would he gain the standard feat and ability increase due at 12th level?

Quote
Page 19: "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits."

I'd say no feat.

That said, it wouldn't be unbalanced for a DM to give out feats as if bloodline levels were character levels.
Andy Collins
Senior Designer
Wizards of the Coast Roleplaying R&D

You're level 11, you take a bloodline class level, and the author wouldn't give you the character level 12 feat. He does not consider bloodline levels character levels.
I personally, in my own campaign, treat bloodlines as a gradual level adjustment. So in my context, you wouldn't get the feat at 12th level, because you wouldn't gain a feat that level. However, you would still qualify for that feat.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 08:21:30 PM by TheAbyssDragon »

spacemonkey555

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #98 on: April 17, 2011, 08:49:59 PM »
Not really.  The ones that think they're clever are just plain irritating.

Does it irritate you more when it turns out they're right and you're wrong, or are they all equally irritating?

X-Codes

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Re: Eberron giant-themed anima mage
« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2011, 12:56:43 AM »
Not really.  The ones that think they're clever are just plain irritating.

Does it irritate you more when it turns out they're right and you're wrong, or are they all equally irritating?
Don't know.  Hasn't happened yet.  They're called idiots for a reason, you know.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 12:58:14 AM by X-Codes »