Eberron giant-themed anima mage

[BeholderSlayer]

I notice that bloodline levels raise your maximum skill ranks the same way a normal level (with no class skills) would.  That's one important way it's very different from LA.

I notice that when you buy off level adjustment, your level adjustment decreases.  Does that mean when you buy off a bloodline level (assuming you can), your number of bloodline levels decreases?  That sounds counterproductive.

Even if you could gain bloodline levels and buy them off, you'd have to do it when advancing from ECL 3 to 4 (or 6 to 7, 9 to 10, 12 to 13, etc) and it would be most advantageous to do so one bloodline level at a time.  You can only buy off LA when your total number of class levels is advancing to a multiple of 3, and only at intervals of three times your new LA, and your class level advances in the process.  Additionally assuming you can gain an arbitrarily large number of bloodline levels, the trick maxes out at 6 pre-Epic.  (Not that I think it does or should work.)

ANYWAY

Back on the original topic, you might consider Primal Scholar as a topper PrC, if you get that far.  (I know you said you probably won't; I just wanted to say something about the original topic...)

I looked at Primal Scholar. I really liked the flavor. I really didn't like the copious use of action points that it would require. Maybe I could work out a better design and get the DM to pass it, though.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The chart doesn't show "when you obtain bloodline levels".  It merely gives the levels before which "a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline" to avoid taking a 20% xp penalty.

Does the chart show 10 bloodline levels? No. It shows 3. Also the author assumed someone might want to take bloodline levels early. "If he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level" Levels is plural there, singular elsewhere.

Table 1-2 is a list of the times by which you must have taken (n) bloodline levels for a given bloodline strength.  That's all it ever claims to be.  You might attempt to infer that you cannot take more bloodline levels than that, but there's nothing in the RAW about a maximum number of bloodline levels you can take.

Normal class levels raise your character level by giving you a hit die.  

Quote? Or are you working off assumptions? Normal class levels raise your character level and give you a hit die. Bloodline levels don't raise your character level the way a normal class level does, which is by raising your character level, not by giving you a hit die.

Character level was originally just a count of your class levels, with each class level raising your character level by one. Stop conflating hit dice, class levels, and character level.

In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice (HD) of creatures.

Stranger class levels, such as the monster class progressions from libris mortis may raise your character level without adding a hit die.  Template classes give you a point of LA instead of HD, which is a different way of gaining ECL as well.  Bloodline levels don't give you LA or HD, but are still class levels, which is a different way of advancing your character level than normal. 

So why not say "bloodline class levels increase character level just as a normal class level does, but don't give all the benefits of a normal class level"? Do any of those examples say don't raise character level the way a normal class level does? If not they aren't relevant. If they do and then explain how they raise character level, they still aren't normal class levels, so they aren't relevant.

Because normally character level is synonymous with hit dice.  Bloodline levels don't increase character level in the same way, because they increase it in a way that makes the two terms no longer synonymous. 

Again, the fact that the rules text on bloodlines concludes with "see below" indicates that the sentence is just a general overview transitioning into the detailed mechanics in the following paragraphs.

And nowhere in the details does it indicate it raises character level. You're inferring rules from past experience that directly contradict this specific RAW. There aren't even any details in the rest of the bloodline section past that statement which remotely suggest that character level is raised by bloodline level.

Nowhere in the details does it indicate that it does not raise character level.  Bloodline levels are a subset of "class level".  Class levels add to your character level.  Class levels normally give you a hit die while they do it, which is a difference, but that's an explicitly stated difference.

The burden of proof is upon you to prove that bloodline class levels differ from other class levels in that respect. 

[spacemonkey555]

The chart doesn't show "when you obtain bloodline levels".  It merely gives the levels before which "a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline" to avoid taking a 20% xp penalty.

Does the chart show 10 bloodline levels? No. It shows 3. Also the author assumed someone might want to take bloodline levels early. "If he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level" Levels is plural there, singular elsewhere.

Table 1-2 is a list of the times by which you must have taken (n) bloodline levels for a given bloodline strength.  That's all it ever claims to be.  You might attempt to infer that you cannot take more bloodline levels than that, but there's nothing in the RAW about a maximum number of bloodline levels you can take.

Ya, that table shows 3 levels, not 10, just like plenty of 3 level prcs. Think you can take 10 levels of those? That was the point of mentioning it, since you're playing the "the rules don't say I can't" card. I really don't care if you think you can take 78 bloodline levels, or when you take them, you're just throwing up red herrings. The issue is whether or not bloodline levels increase character level, and the rule says they don't. I don't care if its a good rule, or if it breaks the game, it is what it is.

Normal class levels raise your character level by giving you a hit die.  

Quote? Or are you working off assumptions? Normal class levels raise your character level and give you a hit die. Bloodline levels don't raise your character level the way a normal class level does, which is by raising your character level, not by giving you a hit die.

Character level was originally just a count of your class levels, with each class level raising your character level by one. Stop conflating hit dice, class levels, and character level.

In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice (HD) of creatures.

What, are you casting bloodline levels from a wand now? That rule specifically limits how hit dice are tied to character level, it doesn't link them for all purposes. Try looking up character level. That makes your next argument pointless, and I'm not gonna repeat the line from the bloodline rules 800 times if you won't bother to understand it. I really don't care if you see it differently than I do, I'm never gonna play a game with you. The proof is the statement in question, which you won't accept.

[McPoyo]

Okay, wow you are so wrong this will take a while. I'm going to be fully quoting things so as to not deal with partial quote, and out-of-context stuff.

First, from the Character Level glossary entry:

A character's total level. For a character with levels in only one class, class level and character level are the same thing.

Second, from the Class Level glossary entry:

A character's level in a single class. Class features generally depend on class level rather than character level.

Third, from the Hit Die/Dice (HD) glossary entry:

In the singular form, a die rolled to generate hit points. In the plural form, a measure of relative power that is synonymous with character level for the sake of spells, magic items, and magical effects that affect a certain number of Hit Dice of creatures.

In addition, in the DMG under Monstrous Characters (also found on the SRD), it states that to determine total Effective Character Level, you add in any Level Adjustment the creature has, plus it's racial hit dice, plus it's levels in character classes.

Now, to the topic of Bloodlines, and how they interact with the above.

Bloodline levels:

Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels.

Wait, does that actually say "class levels of bloodline"? *checks SRD and UA again* Yup. It certainly says "class levels of bloodline".

So how does this interact? Easily, as shown in the next paragraph of that same entry:

Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

Okay, so he must take a bloodline level before he gains the listed character level, or he takes a penalty, stops advancing bloodline abilities, etc. But what is this about "do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does" business? Well it says at the end of that same sentence that you should see below. So let's look below:

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Okay, so no hit points, no skill points, no class features, no bab or saves. It DOES count for skill caps. It never factors in for XP penalties. That's pretty straight forward, right? What about this next part:

Okay. For things that use CLASS LEVEL, include the bloodline level(s) the character has. So arcane caster level, divine spellcaster level, manifester level for psionic character, initiator level, binding level, stunning fist DCs, etc.

In fact, in the next two paragraphs it provides two examples of both.

So, in the end, here is what we have:
-A character takes CLASS LEVELS in bloodline (x), where X is their particular bloodline, such as Celestial Major, or Djinni Minor.
-A bloodline level does not grant base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features.
-A bloodline level counts as a class level for any calculation that uses class level, but not to get additional class features. So a wizard 5/bloodline 2 casts spells at caster level 7, but only has the spells per day of a Wizard 5. A binder 6/bloodline 2 has an Effective Binder Level of 8, including access to 4th level vestiges because access to those is granted by EBL, but he wouldn't gain the ability to bind a second vestige to him each day because that's a class ability.
-Bloodline levels ARE NOT level adjustments. They are "levels" each character is required to take. Level Adjustment, per Monster Manual page 311, is "a number that is added to the creature's total Hit Dice to arrive at its effective character level."
-Because bloodline levels are not level adjustments, they cannot be bought off.

So you can't buy them off, they are levels, they count for whether a spell can effect you or not, they increase CLASS level calculations as though they were a level in that class, but not for advancing class features or spells known/cast per day.

And, for the third time I address the original issue in this post, they count for whether a spell can effect you or not, they increase CLASS level calculations as though they were a level in that class, but not for advancing class features or spells known/cast per day, and they are a "level" that you take.

Which means they adjust your total character level. It's pretty straight forward and actually simple.

Semi-related:

What, are you casting bloodline levels from a wand now? That rule specifically limits how hit dice are tied to character level, it doesn't link them for all purposes. Try looking up character level. That makes your next argument pointless, and I'm not gonna repeat the line from the bloodline rules 800 times if you won't bother to understand it. I really don't care if you see it differently than I do, I'm never gonna play a game with you. The proof is the statement in question, which you won't accept.

What the fuck idiocy is this entire paragraph? How did anything TML post equate to "casting bloodline levels from wands"? What the fuck, dude? In case you missed it, I posted - in its entirety - the definition of Character Level at the top of my post, and it does nothing but prove you horrifyingly wrong on that entire paragraph.

The only way it doesn't is if you didn't clearly articulate what you meant, and what everyone else is taking it all to mean is not what you actually mean. I would welcome you to rephrase it if that is the case, because arguing against something that isn't what's actually being meant doesn't resolve the issue.

Oh, also, Bloodline levels are not levels in a Prestige Class. Those have a specific definition, too, and call themselves out as PrCs. Bloodlines do not include themselves in this category, so your argument that you can only have 3 levels maximum because it's "just like a PRC" is irrelevant. Kind of like arguing that if I have 3 oranges (prc), I can only have 3 apples (bloodline), because an apple is a fruit (class level), and they both are sold in similar looking baskets at the store.

tl;dr
The bloodlines entry specifically calls them "class levels of bloodline", so any argument they aren't class levels is bullshit and the person is deluding themselves. I just felt like making a wall-of-text post to feel poncy this morning.

Semi-related: I'm not going to start debating the validity of taking more Class Levels of bloodline than the minimum required, since that falls into two categories: 1) it never says how many levels of each bloodline there are, just how many you MUST have at certain points, and 2) It's a "It doesn't specifically say I can't, so I probably can" argument, though it is a valid point.

[spacemonkey555]

Yup, you can read, now learn to understand.

What is the general rule on character level? Each class level adds one, it is the sum of your class levels. What is the specific exemption listed for bloodline classes? They do not increase your character level the way a normal class level does.

If you can't parse these 2 rules and figure out whether bloodline levels increase character level, you shouldn't have passed any english class past say 4th grade.

So you go to the hit die glossary entry and read that hit dice and character level are synonymous for the sake of spells, magic items etc that affect a certain number of hit die. You somehow decide this means hit dice and character level are always synonymous. If that's the case, how can a bloodline level increase character level without increasing hit dice? It couldn't. But that's irrelevant, because hit dice and character level are not synonymous for all purposes. They're only synonymous when the rule says they are, which is when you're counting out how many can be affected by a spell.

As for "the details below" they fit perfectly with my interpretation of the sentence. Don't increase character level, but do provide benefits. The rest of your post is full of assumptions you're trying to pass off as rules, like "-Because bloodline levels are not level adjustments, they cannot be bought off." and insults based on the fact that you don't understand how to read english.

You've got terrible reading comprehension if you think x is z for the sake of y means x is always z. You've got a horrible understanding of dnd rules if you don't understand that a specific rule can override a general one, such as character level = sum of class levels, but bloodline levels don't increase character level.

[McPoyo]

Dude, you are ignoring a critical part: Hit Dice and Character Level are not intrinsically tied together. Nowhere in the rules is it stated all levels grant a hit die.

No. Where.

But that is what your argument is predicated upon.

And no, they don't increase it like normal, but they do provide benefits "as below."

There's a difference between don't increase class level at all, and don't increase it like a class level normally would. The section starts off by calling bloodline levels class levels in bloodline, how is that not a class level?

Once again, a class level DOES NOT HAVE TO GRANT A HIT DIE. Nowhere in the rules is this ever stated. If you are so positive you are correct, please provide a rules quotation and a source. Otherwise, you are frankly wrong in your reasoning. At worst, and you are correct in that statement, then bloodlines contradict themselves and it's up to individual DM discretion how they interact. Otherwise, you are flat wrong.

[spacemonkey555]

Dude, you are ignoring a critical part: Hit Dice and Character Level are not intrinsically tied together. Nowhere in the rules is it stated all levels grant a hit die.

No. Where.

But that is what your argument is predicated upon.

And no, they don't increase it like normal, but they do provide benefits "as below."

There's a difference between don't increase class level at all, and don't increase it like a class level normally would. The section starts off by calling bloodline levels class levels in bloodline, how is that not a class level?

Once again, a class level DOES NOT HAVE TO GRANT A HIT DIE. Nowhere in the rules is this ever stated. If you are so positive you are correct, please provide a rules quotation and a source. Otherwise, you are frankly wrong in your reasoning. At worst, and you are correct in that statement, then bloodlines contradict themselves and it's up to individual DM discretion how they interact. Otherwise, you are flat wrong.

It was never my argument that hit dice and character level are synonymous, it was a red herring put up by mad linguist. I was arguing against it, and you're so lost on the 2 positions that you're now claiming I'm the one arguing for it. When something is a flat count of another item, you normally increment it when you add another of that item, such as class levels and character level, which is the sum of your class levels per the phb. That's the only way a class level can increase character level, by adding 1 to it. Bloodline levels don't increase character level the way a normal class level does, so they don't increment your character level. That they also add benefits is irrelevant.

[McPoyo]

You're still taking that sentence in partial context. You're ignoring the latter half of it.

[spacemonkey555]

The latter half doesn't change the meaning of the first half. You either increase character level or you don't. Class levels raise character level by... raising character level. Not by adding hit dice, skill points, or bab, not by adding level adjustment, base saves, or class abilities. The ", but" clause doesn't change anything, it just clarifies that you get a benefit even though you don't increment character level.

[X-Codes]

The latter half doesn't change the meaning of the first half. You either increase character level or you don't. Class levels raise character level by... raising character level. Not by adding hit dice, skill points, or bab, not by adding level adjustment, base saves, or class abilities. The ", but" clause doesn't change anything, it just clarifies that you get a benefit even though you don't increment character level.

Wrong.  The latter half is a dependent clause, which by definition modifies the first half of the sentence, the independent clause.  Learn English.  Can you please shut up now?

[McPoyo]

The latter half doesn't change the meaning of the first half. You either increase character level or you don't. Class levels raise character level by... raising character level. Not by adding hit dice, skill points, or bab, not by adding level adjustment, base saves, or class abilities. The ", but" clause doesn't change anything, it just clarifies that you get a benefit even though you don't increment character level.

Wrong.  The latter half is a dependent clause, which by definition modifies the first half of the sentence, the independent clause.  Learn English.  Can you please shut up now?

I already tried explaining that twice...

[spacemonkey555]

The latter half doesn't change the meaning of the first half. You either increase character level or you don't. Class levels raise character level by... raising character level. Not by adding hit dice, skill points, or bab, not by adding level adjustment, base saves, or class abilities. The ", but" clause doesn't change anything, it just clarifies that you get a benefit even though you don't increment character level.

Wrong.  The latter half is a dependent clause, which by definition modifies the first half of the sentence, the independent clause.  Learn English.  Can you please shut up now?

Never.   

It's a coordinating conjunction, the second half of the sentence can stand alone. The conjunction in this case indicates an exception, you dont increase character level but you do get benefits. Ordinarily you couldn't get class level benefits without raising character level. This is basic english, I'd fire any employee that couldn't parse this sentence, but then procedural mistakes cost a great deal in my line of work.

[McPoyo]

Incorrect, you can't get class benefits except by raising your level in that class, whioy character level. Your statement would mean if I took a level in barbarian it would also increase my rogue class ability progression.

[X-Codes]

Explain to me how the hell "the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)." makes sense as a stand-alone English sentence.

[CrimsonDeath]

Wait, doesn't that sentence have three clauses?

[spacemonkey555]

Yes, it has a dependent clause and 2 independent clauses, it's a complex-compound sentence.

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does. They do provide certain benefits (see below).

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level. They do provide certain benefits (see below).

If you can quote any rule that shows how bloodline levels do increase a character's character level, do so. There is nothing in the rest of the bloodline section that indicates a character level increase, other than taking class levels, which have been specifically exempted from .... increasing a character's character level the way a normal class level does.

The middle clause explains why the sentence is necessary, it is an exception to the normal rule. The final clause indicates that even though you don't increase character level, you still receive the listed benefits. The word but in this use indicates the clause is contrary to expectation, you don't increase character level but you do get benefits.

None of the benefits increase character level. If there were another sentence in the rules section describing how bloodline levels do increase character level, the middle clause would mean something different. Raising skill caps and increasing class abilities based on level normally come with an increase in character level, but they in no way raise character level on their own merit. Character level is the sum of your class levels normally, that is the only way class levels increase character level.

That's the breakdown from my point of view. The alternative is as follows.

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do (see below).

[X-Codes]

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does. They do provide certain benefits (see below).

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level. They do provide certain benefits (see below).

This is a fail of epic proportions.  You can't just remove clauses whenever you feel like it, especially since the dependent clause is a qualifier of the first independent clause.  The fact that it says that it doesn't increase character level "in the way a normal class level does" implies that it does change your character level.

[CrimsonDeath]

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does. They do provide certain benefits (see below).

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level. They do provide certain benefits (see below).

This is a fail of epic proportions.  You can't just remove clauses whenever you feel like it, especially since the dependent clause is a qualifier of the first independent clause.  The fact that it says that it doesn't increase character level "in the way a normal class level does" implies that it does change your character level.

Not necessarily.  It really doesn't indicate one way or the other if it increases your character level.  It might not, or it might do so in an unusual way.  All we know for certain is that it doesn't increase character way in the usual way.

[X-Codes]

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does. They do provide certain benefits (see below).

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level. They do provide certain benefits (see below).

This is a fail of epic proportions.  You can't just remove clauses whenever you feel like it, especially since the dependent clause is a qualifier of the first independent clause.  The fact that it says that it doesn't increase character level "in the way a normal class level does" implies that it does change your character level.

Not necessarily.  It really doesn't indicate one way or the other if it increases your character level.  It might not, or it might do so in an unusual way.  All we know for certain is that it doesn't increase character way in the usual way.

That's not how English works.  When you say something doesn't work normally, it means it works abnormally, not that it doesn't work.

[CrimsonDeath]

Colloquially, that's probably the more common usage.  I may be thinking too mathematically here.

(In case it's not clear, I'm not taking sides, just trying to reason through an interesting idea.)