Help with a rogue-ish assassin-type guy

[ILM]

So I'm trying to build an assassin-type character, preferably non-evil, that gets both high sneak attack damage/debuffs and a high death attack DC.

So let's get this out of the way: In the character optimization landscape, I know Death Attack blows. Death Attack is so tier 17. A Wizard 20 would kick my assassin's ass at assassinating assholes. Still, I would very much like to see how far it is possible to go in making this character work.

Sources are all 3.5 books and UE with the following caveats: no Incarnum, no psionics, no third-party stuff, no Dragon Magazine. LA 0 races or templates are allowed, so are ACFs. Characters start with two flaws. 32 pb.

So far, then, I have the following:
Human Rogue 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Assassin 5/ Imaskari Vengeance Taker 10
Using two-weapon fighting and Penetrating Strike.
BAB 14, Casts as an Assassin 10, 8d6 sneak attack, Death Attack DC 25+Int+other stuff.

I'm having something of a problem on feats. I think I know a few I want: TWF/ITWF/GTWF, Craven, Staggering Strike, Track (prereq for IVT), and then I have an assortment of stuff I'd like to include without being sure I can: Martial Strike/ Martial Stance (Assassin Stance, obviously)/ Shadow Blade, Daring Outlaw, Darkstalker, Sickening Strike, Terrifying Strike, Pierce Magical Concealment (for Blinking goodness).

Problems:
- clearly not enough room to cram all that in (especially with BAB requirements pushing some of them far back)
- a Swordsage dip would help with all the martial stuff but would cost me 1d6 sneak attack and -1 to Death Attack DC
- BAB is pretty low and that's a problem with TWF. Blurstrike weapons/ stuff to resolve attacks as touch attacks? (isn't there something borderline broken along these lines in SpC?)
- Black Flame Zealot would work instead of IVT, but I played a cleric in my last campaign and don't feel like doing divine spellcasting again (if in a more limited capacity)
- Teflammar Shadowlord is a PrC I love but it has zero sneak attack

Any suggestions?

[Mixster]

If you can be an Unseelie Fey Primordial Giant you'll get +6 int IIRC.

Consider ghost levels for being able to be ethereal when you study someone and then pop out and death attack.

[ILM]

Hm, Ghost levels could be an idea...

Can someone check me on the wording here:

Death Attack

If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damageOnce the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.

If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.

The way I read it, nowhere does it state that the death attack needs to be your first attack, nor that it needs to be a standard action. Therefore, I could - conditions allowing - walk up to the victim during the observation rounds, then do a full attack: first attack applies all sorts of debuffs from ambush feats, and the follow-up delivers the actual death attack. Any flaws in the reasoning?

[snakeman830]

Reccommendations:

Have a Swordsage 2 dip.  This nets you a little more AC, but also will get you Assassin's Stance without feats and actually puts you slightly ahead on the sneak attack curve.

Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) will give you TWF or ITWF if you already have the former.  GTWF isn't really worth it, since you're looking at a -12 penatly on that attack minimum.

There's a mask in MIC under the Garb of the Hunting Cat which gives youthe Track feat.

Now, since I just eliminated the need for 5 feats in your build with these suggestions, I think things should be much easier to work out.

[ILM]

Reccommendations:

Have a Swordsage 2 dip.  This nets you a little more AC, but also will get you Assassin's Stance without feats and actually puts you slightly ahead on the sneak attack curve.

Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) will give you TWF or ITWF if you already have the former.  GTWF isn't really worth it, since you're looking at a -12 penatly on that attack minimum.

There's a mask in MIC under the Garb of the Hunting Cat which gives youthe Track feat.

Now, since I just eliminated the need for 5 feats in your build with these suggestions, I think things should be much easier to work out.

DM doesn't allow items to qualify for PrCs :/.

Regarding the Swordsage 2 dip: 1 level I can see, but two? If it's only for Wis to AC and some extra manoeuvers then I don't think I need that extra level: with high dex and int requirements wis is likely to be one of the dump stats (maybe not like 8, but 10-12).


I worked on the build a little more and came up with this:
Whisper Gnome
flaw 1: Weapon Focus
flaw 2: Darkstalker

1. Ranger 1: Track, Craven
2. Ranger 2: 2WF
3. Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse, []
4. Swashbuckler 2
5. Swashbuckler 3
6. Assassin 1: Terrifying Strike
7. Assassin 2
8. Assassin 3
9. Assassin 4: Daring Outlaw
10. Swordsage 1
11. Imaskari Vengeance Taker 1
12. IVT 2: Shadow Blade
13. IVT 3
14. IVT 4
15. IVT 5: Staggering Strike
16. IVT 6
17. IVT 7
18. IVT 8: Sickening Strike
19. IVT 9
20. IVT 10

Notice there's one open feat at level 3.

15 BAB, 8d6 SA with Assassin's Stance, Death attack DC 24+int+stuff, int to damage, dex to damage, level 9 assassin casting and IVT scrying abilities. Wish I could work Teflammar Shadowlord in there now but the prerequisites are just too much. I've sort of shifted away from massive SA dice to keeping enough to power debuffs (the rest is gravy).

[SorO_Lost]

I for one would like to see you avoid Assassin & Imaskari Vengeance Taker.

While Death Attack & Target of Vengeance are flavorful, there is no reason to kick your self in the balls for flavor. ToV is worthless to your average adventurer and Death Attack is worthless against random encounters. Unless you are playing solo and you are expected to find your own adventure seeds (are you playing assassin's creed?) they won't come into play often enough to outbalance other means of murdering your opponents.

Have a list of helpfulness anyway.

Feats
Craven (CoRuin): +ECL on SA.
Ability Focus: +2 to your Death Attack's save DC.
Aleval School(DotU): -1d6 SA to impose a -2 penalty to one save for one round.

Items
Bracers of the Hunter (SoX): +1d6 SA, +5 hide & +2 initative.
Rogue's Vest (MiC): +1d6 SA, +2 hide/move/reflex.
Murderer's Gloves (?): 3/day swift action, one round invisibily after SAing.
Umbral Awn or Custom Legacy (ToB/WoL): +3d6 SA.
Crystal of True Death (MiC): can SA undead.
Deathstrike Bracers(MiC): SA anything 3/day.

Spells
Grave Strike (SpC): can SA undead.
Golem Strike (SpC?): can SA golems.
Hunter's Eye (PHBII): +<cl/3>d6 SA, claim a cleric using anyspell made the wand for +6d6

Other Noteable Stuff
Mantle of the Predator (MiC, item): +1d6 SS on melee only, +5 hide/move.
Shadow Veil (MiC, item): while in shadows, gain concealment against stuff that does not use light to find you.
Ring of Darkhidden (MiC, item): darkvision cannot see you.
Darkstalker (LoM, feat): blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense still has to roll to find you, flank creatures with all around vision.
Assassins Stance (ToB): 3rd level shadow hand stance, grants +2d6 SA.

[ILM]

Well like I said, I know death attack is sub-optimal but there you go, I'm set on this idea. Assassin and IVT are the two PrCs that I could find that gave both death attack and the best SA progression. Target of Vengeance, meh, I don't really care about that so much.

Anyway, much thanks for the list of stuff . Anything else, anyone?

[Lycanthromancer]

You need swordsage 2 to get Assassin's Stance, since you can only get 1st level stances at swordsage 1.

[ILM]

You need swordsage 2 to get Assassin's Stance, since you can only get 1st level stances at swordsage 1.

Oh, I thought you got to add half your other classes' level too? (to determine what stuff you have access to)

[X-Codes]

The problem with Death Attack isn't that the save sucks.  You can get an awesome save DC on it in a lot of different ways.  The problems are that it's completely nullified by Death Ward, and it takes 3 rounds to set up.

Better way is to use Stonedeath Assassin in Races of Stone.  It's a lot harder to get immunity to Stonedeath Strike beyond the usual SA immunity (which itself can be circumvented in a lot of cases).  Take 5 levels and then go into Assassin to continue boosting the DC and get some minor arcane spellcasting that you really needed a lot earlier.  A good race for this is the Vril from Drow of the Underdark, despite their Int penalty.

Also, yes.  You don't have to make the first attack a death attack.  A good idea would be to carry around a Wounding weapon or some Con-damaging poison to use on a target between the time you study them and hit them with your Death Attack.

[Lycanthromancer]

You need swordsage 2 to get Assassin's Stance, since you can only get 1st level stances at swordsage 1.

Oh, I thought you got to add half your other classes' level too? (to determine what stuff you have access to)

Swordsage specifically states that you may only take 1st level stances at 1st level. After that, your point is valid.

[snakeman830]

Well, then I only freed up 4 feats.  Regardless, it makes the building easier

[SorO_Lost]

The problem with Death Attack isn't that the save sucks.  You can get an awesome save DC on it in a lot of different ways.  The problems are that it's completely nullified by Death Ward, and it takes 3 rounds to set up.

Better way is to use Stonedeath Assassin in Races of Stone.  It's a lot harder to get immunity to Stonedeath Strike beyond the usual SA immunity (which itself can be circumvented in a lot of cases).  Take 5 levels and then go into Assassin to continue boosting the DC and get some minor arcane spellcasting that you really needed a lot earlier.  A good race for this is the Vril from Drow of the Underdark, despite their Int penalty.

Also, yes.  You don't have to make the first attack a death attack.  A good idea would be to carry around a Wounding weapon or some Con-damaging poison to use on a target between the time you study them and hit them with your Death Attack.

One of your problems with Death Attack is shared by Stonedeath Strike. It takes 3 rounds to use it as well. Also Stonedeath caps at 15+int mod and thus likely to be saved against where as his Death Attack is 25+int mod (stone doesn't stack DC wise). That being said, yes blocking death effects is a lot easier and common than form changing. But mindful Deathward is a divine spell and if the DM feels like granting a second NPC to keep deathward up each day, what stops him from having an NPC with stone to flesh up? That being said, direct charisma damage beats both tactics...

btw. Complete Scoundrel has a skill trick known as Mosquito Bite. Since the skill trick convinces the target you attacked and missed, when used in conjunction with an attack they don't know about they won't even be aware they have been attacked until next round. Nice quick way of adding another round's worth of actions in case the Death Attack fails.

[Archao]

Keep in mind that the Craven feat requires the Sneak Attack class feature specifically.

[SorO_Lost]

Keep in mind that the Craven feat requires the Sneak Attack class feature specifically.

Lucky he is rogue based right? Assassin and IVT also grant SA as well.

[AleksanderTheGreat]

Keep in mind that the Craven feat requires the Sneak Attack class feature specifically.

Lucky he is rogue based right? Assassin and IVT also grant SA as well.

Not on 1st level (in the above build).

[X-Codes]

One of your problems with Death Attack is shared by Stonedeath Strike. It takes 3 rounds to use it as well. Also Stonedeath caps at 15+int mod and thus likely to be saved against where as his Death Attack is 25+int mod (stone doesn't stack DC wise). That being said, yes blocking death effects is a lot easier and common than form changing. But mindful Deathward is a divine spell and if the DM feels like granting a second NPC to keep deathward up each day, what stops him from having an NPC with stone to flesh up? That being said, direct charisma damage beats both tactics...

It's a 4th-level divine spell, and also available as +1 and +4 armor enhancements (so 4k for one-shot defense, 25k for permanent defense), so it's not exactly hard for arcane types to get access to it.  What's more, undead are immune even if you remove their immunity to Sneak Attack, while they're not immune to Stonedeath Strike (and have terrible Fort saves at that).

Also, no, with Mosquito Bite they're perfectly aware that you attacked them, they just think you missed.  You can try to hide after attacking if you have HiPS, but that's it.

Finally, if Assassin doesn't pump the save DC then awesome.  Dip Illusionist and go into Unseen Seer and/or Swiftblade.  Better casting, better character, and no worries about the save DC not being ridiculously awesome.  Wounding weapons and Con-damaging poison are more than enough to debuff a Fort save.

[bananaphone]

From a Web Enhancement for the book Dragons of Faerun, being Favored (per the feat) with the Jaezred Chaulssin will net you a +4 to the DC of your Death Attack.  
There may be some flavor issues with it though. (The organization is comprised of half-shadow dragon drow)

Edit:
There are also the Bracers of Murder listed in the DotU book.
+2 to your Death Attack DC, reroll 1's on your SA, and a profane bonus against flatfooted opponents.  8000 gp.

Deathsight is a 4th level Assassin spell (from the Complete Mage) that allows your next attack to be considered a Death Attack without needing 3 rounds of observation.

[ILM]

Keep in mind that the Craven feat requires the Sneak Attack class feature specifically.

Lucky he is rogue based right? Assassin and IVT also grant SA as well.

Not on 1st level (in the above build).

Good point. I switched some stuff around and forgot about the prereq. Shouldn't be a problem though, I can just replace Daring Outlaw at 9 with it (apparently I forgot to take that one out too after I phased out the rogue levels).

Bracers of Murder are pants!

Supposing I could work it in without losing too much, would Teflammar Shadowlord be a wholly better option than IVT? Something like Fighter 2 (gonna need the feats)/ Swashbuckler 3/ Assassin 4/ Swordsage 2/ Assassin +3/ TefSL 6?


I'm not ignoring all the calls to give up death attack and go spellcaster instead and all your points are well made, but I just finished buildong a shadowcraft mage and that had plenty spellcasting already, I'm trying to get a change of scenery here .

[AleksanderTheGreat]

Note that you qualify for Daring Outlaw (thanks to SA from Assassin levels) and it nets you +2d6 SA from the 3 Swashbuckler levels. Maybe you could fit in 1 level of Fighter or Feat Rogue to get another feat? Nevermind, I just noticed your new build above.  
Nitpick: Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3 doesn't qualify for Assassin.
Can you Retrain (PHB2)? If yes then ask your GM if you can retrain Weapon Focus feats from Swordsage 1st level.
Try Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Swordsage +1/Assassin 7/Teflam 6.