Author Topic: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.  (Read 6126 times)

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boomslang

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Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« on: March 31, 2011, 04:34:10 AM »
So, I haven't seen a thread on this anywhere, if there is one I've missed then just point me to it and I'll dispense with this one.

In complete adventurer and complete scoundrel, there are a number of feats which allow levels in different classes to stack with each other for the purpose of specific abilities. If we are to go by the intended use of these feats, they're good for reducing the terribleness of certain combinations. But what I'm attempting to do is abuse them as much as possible.

(I'm aware that, as any combination will lack 9th level spells, wildshape, or metamagic reducers, it's really not possible to get to tier 1, let alone get into campaign smashers territory. Oh well.)

First off, our main, and most obvious limitation, is that each of them require feats, and those are in relatively short supply. As far as I can tell, only the monk-oriented ones that require improved unarmed strike instead of an actual class ability are able to be used at first level- and even then, due to the other requirement, only one can be taken right off the bat. The fighter-oriented ones can be taken as bonus feats- but since the benefit is so small, the only reason to include them at all is for the sake of doing so. There are always other classes that would stack more effectively.

At the moment, it appears that seven of the more useful ones, of whatever variety, are fairly easy to build up into a single build. One of those, at first level, would have to be a monk-oriented one, however.

Rather than just posting an example, of which there are many, I'd like to ask for some help in a few areas-

-What are the most desirable of class features to progress? Skirmish and sneak attack both seem to be extremely useful; monk unarmed damage, bardic music, favored enemy, and smite evil are okay, and any of the rest are not particularly impressive.

-Are there any books containing these types of feats other than the above two and secrets of sarlona?

-In actual play, I've seen excessively multiclassed characters really struggle to fill a niche, and this build is very slow to build, peaking around the same time spellcasters are starting to really dominate. And it's so feat starved that most of the usual combos are impossible.

-MAD is a serious problem, but ascetic mage and avoiding spellcasting for ranger and paladin seems to reduce wisdom penalty at the expense of several class features. Are there any other suggestions for cutting down on ability score overdependance?


Assistance with the above is very welcome- I'm familiar with optimization in general, and while this seemed like a very interesting challenge, seems to be a bit above my source knowledge and diagonal thinking abilities.

Tethlis

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2011, 05:05:17 AM »
Sneak Attack Fighter 3/Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue 14 with Daring Outlaw.
"Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for Sneak Attack", so you get feats and sneak attack, plus rogue special abilities and as a bonus, 16 BAB before Epic.

My favorite use of daring outlaw

Unbeliever

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2011, 05:39:12 PM »
There are bardic music ones in Champions of Valor, but they kind of got blown out of the water by Song of the White Raven.  Which, since you ask, is among the most powerful feats of this sort, imho.  It's in TOB, by the way.

-In actual play, I've seen excessively multiclassed characters really struggle to fill a niche, and this build is very slow to build, peaking around the same time spellcasters are starting to really dominate. And it's so feat starved that most of the usual combos are impossible.
...
This, I have to disagree with.  Or, say that that those builds use a different approach to multiclassing than the one I use.  I use multiclassing to grab abilities that I think are useful to my concept, recognizing that sometimes that concept will be relatively broad or have a combination embedded in it -- fighter/mage being the obvious example.  If everything in the build is working towards something, rather than being scattered or random, then even if the build stub looks messy it should have a well-established niche that it fills as well as can be done in the system. 

Endarire

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2011, 05:48:57 PM »
Multiclassing is meant to enhance your role more than give you a bunch of level 1 abilities.  I used such synergies for http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_35_Dragoon]Hood.
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Mixster

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2011, 06:01:23 PM »
Sneak Attack Fighter 3/Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue 14 with Daring Outlaw.
"Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for Sneak Attack", so you get feats and sneak attack, plus rogue special abilities and as a bonus, 16 BAB before Epic.

My favorite use of daring outlaw
I prefer:
Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 2/Feat Rogue 2/assassin 1/Feat Rogue +14
Easy to qualify for assassin (or avenger if needed), You get BAB 16, Fighter feats galore and 10d6 sneak attack, as well as a poison use and a few spells (probably only 1) from assassin.

Quote
Skirmish and sneak attack both seem to be extremely useful; monk unarmed damage, bardic music, favored enemy, and smite evil are okay, and any of the rest are not particularly impressive.
I would favour Bardic Music over precision damage any day of the weak.
And smite evil is rather meaningless.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Tethlis

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2011, 06:54:41 PM »
Carmendine Monk makes monk an ok dip for any int focused build.

boomslang

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2011, 12:07:10 AM »
There are bardic music ones in Champions of Valor, but they kind of got blown out of the water by Song of the White Raven.  Which, since you ask, is among the most powerful feats of this sort, imho.  It's in TOB, by the way.

Gah. I did find that one, but forgot to write it down. It isn't particularly useful for the concept I'm going with here- do I need to be clearer on that bit? Mostly because ToB base classes don't (as far as I'm aware) have feats to progress anything else. So there's no additional synergy.

Quote
This, I have to disagree with.  Or, say that that those builds use a different approach to multiclassing than the one I use.  I use multiclassing to grab abilities that I think are useful to my concept, recognizing that sometimes that concept will be relatively broad or have a combination embedded in it -- fighter/mage being the obvious example.  If everything in the build is working towards something, rather than being scattered or random, then even if the build stub looks messy it should have a well-established niche that it fills as well as can be done in the system. 

If you're not doing the thing that I described as a problem, well, yeah, you won't have the problem. Pretty simple. I was talking more about taking a theory-crafting excercise, like these, and looking for advice on playing those builds, and suggestions as to which ones are (more) valid characters.

I would favour Bardic Music over precision damage any day of the weak.
And smite evil is rather meaningless.

Precision damage is a lot better when the list of things immune to it by virtue of creature type drops to zero, and swift hunter does that for skirmish. Bardic music is useful with certain feats (dragonfire inspiration), not so much without, and since uses per day aren't increased, it's usefulness drops even further.

Smite evil isn't good without further augments, I'll give you that, but it's better than, say, ki pool or the swashbuckler's grace feature, which I'm putting in the lowest tier. At least once per day, it adds a large flat modifier to damage if you're progressing it through the entire build.

CantripN

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2011, 12:31:13 AM »
You really haven't seen Bardic Music in play, have you? Even without Dragonfire Inspiration, most of the Bardic Music effects, not just Inspire Courage, are SOOOO easy to break in half.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2011, 12:38:21 AM »
bard1/paladin5/monk2/paladin12

ACF: overwhelming attack monk

Feats:
1-able learner, nymph's kiss
3-devoted performer
6-initate of milil
monk1-power attack
monk2-improved bullrush
9-ascetic knight
12-shock trooper
15-divine might
18-battle blessing

Bardic music abilities and music per day as a 18th level bard, unarmed strikes as a 19th level monk, 3 smites a day as a 20th level paladin

nijineko

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2011, 02:40:21 AM »
i'm fond of tashalatora monk builds. take one level of monk, maybe two at the most, never need to take another level again. then again, i'm also fond of psionics, so this works well for me.
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Widow

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2011, 04:17:30 AM »
There are more of those feats in dragon magazine #357.  The one I remeber off the top of my head lets a bard/cleric stack levels for turn undead and bardic music uses.

MalcolmSprye

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2011, 04:41:10 AM »
You really haven't seen Bardic Music in play, have you? Even without Dragonfire Inspiration, most of the Bardic Music effects, not just Inspire Courage, are SOOOO easy to break in half.
Indeed.  My current character is a bard/troubadour of stars(with homebrew fixes to make troubadour not suck).  My biggest issue for much of the campaign was feeling trapped by my own music.  Words of Creation IC(with inspirational boost) accounted for so much of the party's damage output that any other first round action was a mistake.

@boomslang
especially when your party has gotten up to iterative attacks, +x/+x to hit and damage really adds up.  That extra power attack from the barb that would have missed otherwise is all you :)

MalcolmSprye

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2011, 12:25:38 PM »
I just had a thought on my way to work, and realized that the question matches this thread's topic:
Is there any feat/PrC/whatever that allows for Bardic music + Psionics?

boomslang

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2011, 05:45:59 PM »
I'd be the last person to claim bard's aren't good, but as part of this setup?. I'm thinking four levels of bard AT MOST, since bard doesn't progress anything except smite evil- which several people are saying is worthless (see the logic here?).

So inspire courage is the only ability you get, it maxes out at four times per day (enough for most combats, I'd say), and you don't have the feats to improve it. Ergo, the very thing this thread is about precludes really optimizing bardic music.

It's still useful, but since there's such an opportunity cost for minor gain in maximizing it, I don't think it matches what I'm saying.


All in all, I think I may have excessively obfuscated the entire point. And no one has bothered to actually address the things I'm concerned about, so yeah.

Arz

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2011, 06:18:26 PM »
I like monk 2 | paladin 15 | argent 3. You can turn yourself into a wis powerhouse w/ serenity. Kinda makes you wanna convert the scorpion kama to the "Wee! My lance has a fist on it."

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2011, 06:49:19 PM »
How about monk/psionic fist with Tashalatora? Double the monk progression on your monk abilities.
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MalcolmSprye

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2011, 07:21:22 PM »
I'd be the last person to claim bard's aren't good, but as part of this setup?. I'm thinking four levels of bard AT MOST, since bard doesn't progress anything except smite evil- which several people are saying is worthless (see the logic here?).

So inspire courage is the only ability you get, it maxes out at four times per day (enough for most combats, I'd say), and you don't have the feats to improve it. Ergo, the very thing this thread is about precludes really optimizing bardic music.

It's still useful, but since there's such an opportunity cost for minor gain in maximizing it, I don't think it matches what I'm saying.


All in all, I think I may have excessively obfuscated the entire point. And no one has bothered to actually address the things I'm concerned about, so yeah.
I hadn't read those CA and CS feats in a while... I was under the impression that they progressed Inspire courage, as Song of the White Raven does.  The one that only progresses music uses is totally not worth it.

Unbeliever

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2011, 07:58:00 PM »
All in all, I think I may have excessively obfuscated the entire point. And no one has bothered to actually address the things I'm concerned about, so yeah.
Ummm ... yeah.  Why don't you try to actually tell us what you are asking, then?  I've read through this thread 3 times and it seems you asked question A, and when you got cogent replies to question A your only response has been to shoot them down by saying you were really asking question B, but nowhere have you taken the time to say what question B is.  If you do, maybe we can help.

For example, let's take bardic music, which I alluded to earlier.  Inspire Courage is a good ability to advance (answers your first bullet point question), potentially great if Dragonfire Inspiration is on the table.  Good ways to advance it are in Champions of Valor and Tome of Battle (your second bullet point).  It does not, inherently lead to a scattered character b/c the resources necessary to make it work aren't all that great, and b/c it can readily be added to several concepts -- e.g., Crusader + Inspire Courage is a natural fit (your third bullet point, though I have no idea really what you were going for w/ that one based on your subsequent comments).  And, part of the reason IC is such a great ability to advance is it's not MAD b/c it's not keyed to a particular stat, though other forms of bardic music are. 

And,

So inspire courage is the only ability you get, it maxes out at four times per day (enough for most combats, I'd say), and you don't have the feats to improve it. Ergo, the very thing this thread is about precludes really optimizing bardic music.

It's still useful, but since there's such an opportunity cost for minor gain in maximizing it, I don't think it matches what I'm saying.
This is almost assuredly wrong.  You can make a murderous Song of the White Raven build with just a single bard level, though I'd probably use 2.  It does get a little feat intensive, so it's better if you use flaws or bonus feats, but its effects are impressive.  There are several builds available, I'm sure, just use the search function.

Gnomeo

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2011, 11:14:36 PM »
I'm trying to develop some strategies for characters who use more of these feats than typical to advance the features of several classes.

You mean something like Monk 2 / Rogue 15 / Scout 3 with Swift Ambusher and Ascetic Rogue?

Unarmed Strike as a 17th level Monk (2d8), Sneak Attack as a 15th level Rogue (+8d6), & Skirmish as an 18th level Scout (+5d6/4AC).  Pretty much a standard Rogue with options.
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boomslang

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Re: Force multipliers- optimizing multiclass oriented feats.
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2011, 12:14:47 AM »
I'm trying to develop some strategies for characters who use more of these feats than typical to advance the features of several classes.

You mean something like Monk 2 / Rogue 15 / Scout 3 with Swift Ambusher and Ascetic Rogue?

Unarmed Strike as a 17th level Monk (2d8), Sneak Attack as a 15th level Rogue (+8d6), & Skirmish as an 18th level Scout (+5d6/4AC).  Pretty much a standard Rogue with options.

Closer to what I'm talking about, but...

Everyone knows how to make a combination like this with one or two feats, and there are lots of guides for optimizing specific features. If that's all I was talking about, I wouldn't have started a thread.

If I seem a bit cross with anyone discussing bardic music optimization or seem dismissive of it, it's because bardic music by itself, or smite evil or favored enemy or any single specific ability, is not the point. At all. It's multiple abilities, all progressing to the best possible level, that I'm going for. Anything else is essentially a waste of everyone's time.