What do I know?

[CaptainKarzak]

I've been reading the Red Wizard (PrC) Handbook, and the author brings up an issue that I want clarification on.

One of the attributes of this PrC is: Enhanced Specialization, which requires me to lose access to another school of magic (not divination).

The Red Wizard Handbook [currently located on page 5 of theknown" before I am forced to ban the school. How legit is this? Can I actually classify a spell as "known" if I am still too low in level to actually cast it?

Edit: Forgot handbooks are threads and threads move when people post in them. D'oh.

[Mixster]

Yes, the only limit on whether a wizard can learn a spell is whether he is the correct class IIRC.

But your DM would sneeze at you.

[Echoes]

Specifically, it's a matter of how Wizards learn their spells. The PHB is very clear about this: any spell you scribe into your spellbook is on your Spells Known list. The only requirements for you to scribe a spell into your spellbook is that it be a sorcerer/wizard spell (the Rule's Compendium clarified this). Banning a school removes that school from your sorcerer/wizard spell list (that is, the list of spells that you can learn), but if you already know the spell it doesn't retroactively remove it from your spellbook, and you can still memorize and cast it because it's still a known spell.

In short, the only time the game checks if a spell is on your class spell list is when you scribe it. After that, you're good to go.

[Lycanthromancer]

This is why the MotAO prestige class is a good deal for wizards; they get all those spells and don't have to worry about it.

Unless I'm mistaken? And I probably am.

[BeholderSlayer]

No, you still can't cast spells that you've prohibited through Spellpool access. They are still of a banned school.

However, Red Wizard can cast spells they knew before banning their last school. This is a specific exception to the rule. It is typically a good idea to snag anything good from that third school before taking your first Red Wizard level. To do this, it's a good idea to take Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 and craft your own Boccob's Blessed Book ASAP. This gets around the scribing costs for those high level spells, making them much cheaper.

It's also definitely a good idea to get into Red Wizard at 5 if you are going to play at level 20. Then your simulacra can run Circle Magic without you, and you can power your own Circle Magic much faster.

[CaptainKarzak]

Awesome, thanks for the quick clarification guys.

BeholderSlayer, thanks for posting the Red Wizard handbook to the BG site. It's been very helpful.

[KellKheraptis]

No, you still can't cast spells that you've prohibited through Spellpool access. They are still of a banned school.

However, Red Wizard can cast spells they knew before banning their last school. This is a specific exception to the rule. It is typically a good idea to snag anything good from that third school before taking your first Red Wizard level. To do this, it's a good idea to take Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 and craft your own Boccob's Blessed Book ASAP. This gets around the scribing costs for those high level spells, making them much cheaper.

It's also definitely a good idea to get into Red Wizard at 5 if you are going to play at level 20. Then your simulacra can run Circle Magic without you, and you can power your own Circle Magic much faster.

Actually, that's the whole point of the spellpool, is using it to get around what you banned as a Focused Specialist.

[BeholderSlayer]

No, you still can't cast spells that you've prohibited through Spellpool access. They are still of a banned school.

However, Red Wizard can cast spells they knew before banning their last school. This is a specific exception to the rule. It is typically a good idea to snag anything good from that third school before taking your first Red Wizard level. To do this, it's a good idea to take Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 and craft your own Boccob's Blessed Book ASAP. This gets around the scribing costs for those high level spells, making them much cheaper.

It's also definitely a good idea to get into Red Wizard at 5 if you are going to play at level 20. Then your simulacra can run Circle Magic without you, and you can power your own Circle Magic much faster.

No, that's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is acting as a Swiss Army Knife, able to call to mind a utilitarian spell whenever the need arises.

The Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not allow for one to cast spells from one.
Actually, that's the whole point of the spellpool, is using it to get around what you banned as a Focused Specialist.

No, wrong. That's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is versatility and utility, having access to a spell when you need it. Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not do so.

[KellKheraptis]

No, you still can't cast spells that you've prohibited through Spellpool access. They are still of a banned school.

However, Red Wizard can cast spells they knew before banning their last school. This is a specific exception to the rule. It is typically a good idea to snag anything good from that third school before taking your first Red Wizard level. To do this, it's a good idea to take Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 and craft your own Boccob's Blessed Book ASAP. This gets around the scribing costs for those high level spells, making them much cheaper.

It's also definitely a good idea to get into Red Wizard at 5 if you are going to play at level 20. Then your simulacra can run Circle Magic without you, and you can power your own Circle Magic much faster.

No, that's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is acting as a Swiss Army Knife, able to call to mind a utilitarian spell whenever the need arises.

The Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not allow for one to cast spells from one.
Actually, that's the whole point of the spellpool, is using it to get around what you banned as a Focused Specialist.

No, wrong. That's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is versatility and utility, having access to a spell when you need it. Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not do so.

Specific > General.  I specifically may call any Core Sor/Wiz spell from the spell pool, provided I have access to spells and spell pool access of that level.

You can run it any way you want to, but I have never since Complete Arcane Tome and Blood came out seen it ruled differently.

[BeholderSlayer]

No, you still can't cast spells that you've prohibited through Spellpool access. They are still of a banned school.

However, Red Wizard can cast spells they knew before banning their last school. This is a specific exception to the rule. It is typically a good idea to snag anything good from that third school before taking your first Red Wizard level. To do this, it's a good idea to take Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 and craft your own Boccob's Blessed Book ASAP. This gets around the scribing costs for those high level spells, making them much cheaper.

It's also definitely a good idea to get into Red Wizard at 5 if you are going to play at level 20. Then your simulacra can run Circle Magic without you, and you can power your own Circle Magic much faster.

No, that's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is acting as a Swiss Army Knife, able to call to mind a utilitarian spell whenever the need arises.

The Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not allow for one to cast spells from one.
Actually, that's the whole point of the spellpool, is using it to get around what you banned as a Focused Specialist.

No, wrong. That's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is versatility and utility, having access to a spell when you need it. Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not do so.

Specific > General.  I specifically may call any Core Sor/Wiz spell from the spell pool, provided I have access to spells and spell pool access of that level.

You can run it any way you want to, but I have never since Complete Arcane Tome and Blood came out seen it ruled differently.

Have fun calling the spell, when you are specifically banned from casting it because you *specifically* may not cast the spell even from a wand or scroll. Congratulations, you just incurred spell debt for something that you can't cast.

The sentence which you speak of is not specific at all. It is, in fact, quite general. This is not a case of specific overrides general. Even if it were, the Spellpool specifically gives you the ability to "call" a spell, but does NOT give you the ability to actually cast the spell.

You can run it any way you want to, but I haven't seen it ruled otherwise.

[KellKheraptis]

No, you still can't cast spells that you've prohibited through Spellpool access. They are still of a banned school.

However, Red Wizard can cast spells they knew before banning their last school. This is a specific exception to the rule. It is typically a good idea to snag anything good from that third school before taking your first Red Wizard level. To do this, it's a good idea to take Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 and craft your own Boccob's Blessed Book ASAP. This gets around the scribing costs for those high level spells, making them much cheaper.

It's also definitely a good idea to get into Red Wizard at 5 if you are going to play at level 20. Then your simulacra can run Circle Magic without you, and you can power your own Circle Magic much faster.

No, that's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is acting as a Swiss Army Knife, able to call to mind a utilitarian spell whenever the need arises.

The Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not allow for one to cast spells from one.
Actually, that's the whole point of the spellpool, is using it to get around what you banned as a Focused Specialist.

No, wrong. That's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is versatility and utility, having access to a spell when you need it. Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not do so.

Specific > General.  I specifically may call any Core Sor/Wiz spell from the spell pool, provided I have access to spells and spell pool access of that level.

You can run it any way you want to, but I have never since Complete Arcane Tome and Blood came out seen it ruled differently.

Have fun calling the spell, when you are specifically banned from casting it because you *specifically* may not cast the spell even from a wand or scroll. Congratulations, you just incurred spell debt for something that you can't cast.

The sentence which you speak of is not specific at all. It is, in fact, quite general. This is not a case of specific overrides general. Even if it were, the Spellpool specifically gives you the ability to "call" a spell, but does NOT give you the ability to actually cast the spell.

While I could frankly give a shit less, might wanna let Treatmonk know that.  Besides, good Batman wizards never do anything dumb like ban Transmutation, so there's all your spell schools back again, anyhow, through one of several means

And to the OP, Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 also means that not only can the sims lead their own circles, but quite frankly with the trickery used to rememorize/swap spells, are perfectly credible archmagi in their own right.  20th level slots @ minimum CL 40 is NOTHING to sneeze at, after all.

[BeholderSlayer]

No, you still can't cast spells that you've prohibited through Spellpool access. They are still of a banned school.

However, Red Wizard can cast spells they knew before banning their last school. This is a specific exception to the rule. It is typically a good idea to snag anything good from that third school before taking your first Red Wizard level. To do this, it's a good idea to take Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 and craft your own Boccob's Blessed Book ASAP. This gets around the scribing costs for those high level spells, making them much cheaper.

It's also definitely a good idea to get into Red Wizard at 5 if you are going to play at level 20. Then your simulacra can run Circle Magic without you, and you can power your own Circle Magic much faster.

No, that's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is acting as a Swiss Army Knife, able to call to mind a utilitarian spell whenever the need arises.

The Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not allow for one to cast spells from one.
Actually, that's the whole point of the spellpool, is using it to get around what you banned as a Focused Specialist.

No, wrong. That's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is versatility and utility, having access to a spell when you need it. Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not do so.

Specific > General.  I specifically may call any Core Sor/Wiz spell from the spell pool, provided I have access to spells and spell pool access of that level.

You can run it any way you want to, but I have never since Complete Arcane Tome and Blood came out seen it ruled differently.

Have fun calling the spell, when you are specifically banned from casting it because you *specifically* may not cast the spell even from a wand or scroll. Congratulations, you just incurred spell debt for something that you can't cast.

The sentence which you speak of is not specific at all. It is, in fact, quite general. This is not a case of specific overrides general. Even if it were, the Spellpool specifically gives you the ability to "call" a spell, but does NOT give you the ability to actually cast the spell.

While I could frankly give a shit less, might wanna let Treatmonk know that.  Besides, good Batman wizards never do anything dumb like ban Transmutation, so there's all your spell schools back again, anyhow, through one of several means

And to the OP, Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 also means that not only can the sims lead their own circles, but quite frankly with the trickery used to rememorize/swap spells, are perfectly credible archmagi in their own right.  20th level slots @ minimum CL 40 is NOTHING to sneeze at, after all.

Why bother? Isn't he into 4.0 or Pathfailure or something now?

[KellKheraptis]

No, you still can't cast spells that you've prohibited through Spellpool access. They are still of a banned school.

However, Red Wizard can cast spells they knew before banning their last school. This is a specific exception to the rule. It is typically a good idea to snag anything good from that third school before taking your first Red Wizard level. To do this, it's a good idea to take Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 and craft your own Boccob's Blessed Book ASAP. This gets around the scribing costs for those high level spells, making them much cheaper.

It's also definitely a good idea to get into Red Wizard at 5 if you are going to play at level 20. Then your simulacra can run Circle Magic without you, and you can power your own Circle Magic much faster.

No, that's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is acting as a Swiss Army Knife, able to call to mind a utilitarian spell whenever the need arises.

The Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not allow for one to cast spells from one.
Actually, that's the whole point of the spellpool, is using it to get around what you banned as a Focused Specialist.

No, wrong. That's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is versatility and utility, having access to a spell when you need it. Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not do so.

Specific > General.  I specifically may call any Core Sor/Wiz spell from the spell pool, provided I have access to spells and spell pool access of that level.

You can run it any way you want to, but I have never since Complete Arcane Tome and Blood came out seen it ruled differently.

Have fun calling the spell, when you are specifically banned from casting it because you *specifically* may not cast the spell even from a wand or scroll. Congratulations, you just incurred spell debt for something that you can't cast.

The sentence which you speak of is not specific at all. It is, in fact, quite general. This is not a case of specific overrides general. Even if it were, the Spellpool specifically gives you the ability to "call" a spell, but does NOT give you the ability to actually cast the spell.

While I could frankly give a shit less, might wanna let Treatmonk know that.  Besides, good Batman wizards never do anything dumb like ban Transmutation, so there's all your spell schools back again, anyhow, through one of several means

And to the OP, Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 also means that not only can the sims lead their own circles, but quite frankly with the trickery used to rememorize/swap spells, are perfectly credible archmagi in their own right.  20th level slots @ minimum CL 40 is NOTHING to sneeze at, after all.

Why bother? Isn't he into 4.0 or Pathfailure or something now?

Failfinder mainly I think.  Also, ever seen the trick with a Book of Ancient/Arcane Lore and the Transmuter ACF?  It basically means you can play a Changeling dual FS into SCM and still have every spell ever as a Transmutation, plus emulate it with a Shadow Miracle.

[BeholderSlayer]

No, you still can't cast spells that you've prohibited through Spellpool access. They are still of a banned school.

However, Red Wizard can cast spells they knew before banning their last school. This is a specific exception to the rule. It is typically a good idea to snag anything good from that third school before taking your first Red Wizard level. To do this, it's a good idea to take Craft Wonderous Item at level 3 and craft your own Boccob's Blessed Book ASAP. This gets around the scribing costs for those high level spells, making them much cheaper.

It's also definitely a good idea to get into Red Wizard at 5 if you are going to play at level 20. Then your simulacra can run Circle Magic without you, and you can power your own Circle Magic much faster.

No, that's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is acting as a Swiss Army Knife, able to call to mind a utilitarian spell whenever the need arises.

The Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not allow for one to cast spells from one.
Actually, that's the whole point of the spellpool, is using it to get around what you banned as a Focused Specialist.

No, wrong. That's not the point of the Spellpool. The point of the Spellpool is versatility and utility, having access to a spell when you need it. Spellpool never specifically overrides the prohibition of a school, and as such does not do so.

Specific > General.  I specifically may call any Core Sor/Wiz spell from the spell pool, provided I have access to spells and spell pool access of that level.

You can run it any way you want to, but I have never since Complete Arcane Tome and Blood came out seen it ruled differently.

Have fun calling the spell, when you are specifically banned from casting it because you *specifically* may not cast the spell even from a wand or scroll. Congratulations, you just incurred spell debt for something that you can't cast.

The sentence which you speak of is not specific at all. It is, in fact, quite general. This is not a case of specific overrides general. Even if it were, the Spellpool specifically gives you the ability to "call" a spell, but does NOT give you the ability to actually cast the spell.

While I could frankly give a shit less, might wanna let Treatmonk know that.  Besides, good Batman wizards never do anything dumb like ban Transmutation, so there's all your spell schools back again, anyhow, through one of several means

And to the OP, Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5 also means that not only can the sims lead their own circles, but quite frankly with the trickery used to rememorize/swap spells, are perfectly credible archmagi in their own right.  20th level slots @ minimum CL 40 is NOTHING to sneeze at, after all.

Why bother? Isn't he into 4.0 or Pathfailure or something now?

Failfinder mainly I think.  Also, ever seen the trick with a Book of Ancient/Arcane Lore and the Transmuter ACF?  It basically means you can play a Changeling dual FS into SCM and still have every spell ever as a Transmutation, plus emulate it with a Shadow Miracle.

I thought that the Transmuter ACF only worked on a specific number of spells, but I haven't looked at either of those things for a while so I don't really remember them very well.

[Endarire]

Kell: How does that Dual Focused Specialist thing work?

[BeholderSlayer]

Kell: How does that Dual Focused Specialist thing work?

Based on a kink in the wording of the two items, focused specialist changeling dual-specialists get 4 specialist spell slots per spell level, IIRC. It's been a while since I looked at the transmuter ACF that makes other spells transmutations, though.

[KellKheraptis]

All Previous Shit

Indeed.  However, due to wording on the Tome of Ancient Lore, it contains all arcane spells ever created, requiring a trivial check to find it.  All includes all spells turned into transmutations, even ones some random Unseen Seer/Wyrm Wizard/Etc added to his list.  As such, all spells.  Enjoy Venomfire on an arcane gish

DISCLAIMER : Kell's specialty platters have been known to cause concussions from angry vindictive DM's, who don't like having the banhammer broken off in their ass.

[Echoes]

Have fun calling the spell, when you are specifically banned from casting it because you *specifically* may not cast the spell even from a wand or scroll. Congratulations, you just incurred spell debt for something that you can't cast.

The sentence which you speak of is not specific at all. It is, in fact, quite general. This is not a case of specific overrides general. Even if it were, the Spellpool specifically gives you the ability to "call" a spell, but does NOT give you the ability to actually cast the spell.

You can run it any way you want to, but I haven't seen it ruled otherwise.

Wrong. Specialization doesn't affect the spells you can cast, it affects the spells you can learn. If you scribed an evocation spell into your spellbook and then later banned evocation, you could still cast that spell because it's a known spell. That's why you need UMD to use wands and scrolls of spells from your banned school: they aren't considering to be on your class spell list.

The spellpool doesn't care though. All it looks as is whether you have an open slot for it. If you do, bam, spell for you. Specialization doesn't mean you can't cast spells of your banned school - it means you can't learn them.

This all happens because Wizards have two spell lists. There's the sorcerer/wizard spell list, from which you can pick anything. Then there's your personal wizard spell list, which is the same as the sorcerer/wizard spell list minus whatever schools you've banned + whatever spells you've managed to get into your spell book. When it comes to what spells you can learn or what spell trigger/completion items you can use, you are limited to your personal list. When it comes to the Spellpool, all it cares about is the main sorcerer/wizard list.

[Mixster]

From the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm

The wizard must choose whether to specialize and, if she does so, choose her specialty at 1st level. At this time, she must also give up two other schools of magic (unless she chooses to specialize in divination; see below), which become her prohibited schools.

(...)

She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.

Emphasis mine.

However, the red wizard can technically do so:
DMG p. 193-194

The Red Wizard must choose an additional prohibited school or schools using the rules in the player's handbook. He can never again learn spells from those prohibited schools. He cannot choose the same prohibited school he chose as a 1st level wizard. He can still use the prohibited spells he knew prior to becoming a Red Wizard, including using items that are activated by spell completion or spell trigger.

Emphasis mine.

In the light of this evidence, I see no reason why the wizard should be able to cast spells from his prohibited schools. The Red Wizard can though, and if he's flunking around as a MotAO as well, he can spellpool the spells from one of his prohibited schools as well.

Not that if you enter Incantatrix first, and then Red Wizard, you could technically give up the same school for both classes, since the Red Wizard states you cannot give up the same school you did as your first wizard level, and nothing about what you did on the first level of incantatrix.

There's always the Tome of Ancient Lore cheese. But that requires you to copy the spells over to a blessed book of Boccob or have 10% of not being able to memorize a needed spell.

[BeholderSlayer]

Have fun calling the spell, when you are specifically banned from casting it because you *specifically* may not cast the spell even from a wand or scroll. Congratulations, you just incurred spell debt for something that you can't cast.

The sentence which you speak of is not specific at all. It is, in fact, quite general. This is not a case of specific overrides general. Even if it were, the Spellpool specifically gives you the ability to "call" a spell, but does NOT give you the ability to actually cast the spell.

You can run it any way you want to, but I haven't seen it ruled otherwise.

Wrong. Specialization doesn't affect the spells you can cast, it affects the spells you can learn. If you scribed an evocation spell into your spellbook and then later banned evocation, you could still cast that spell because it's a known spell. That's why you need UMD to use wands and scrolls of spells from your banned school: they aren't considering to be on your class spell list.

The spellpool doesn't care though. All it looks as is whether you have an open slot for it. If you do, bam, spell for you. Specialization doesn't mean you can't cast spells of your banned school - it means you can't learn them.

This all happens because Wizards have two spell lists. There's the sorcerer/wizard spell list, from which you can pick anything. Then there's your personal wizard spell list, which is the same as the sorcerer/wizard spell list minus whatever schools you've banned + whatever spells you've managed to get into your spell book. When it comes to what spells you can learn or what spell trigger/completion items you can use, you are limited to your personal list. When it comes to the Spellpool, all it cares about is the main sorcerer/wizard list.

Wrong. Specialization even says you can't cast them. It doesn't say anything at all about not being able to learn them.

As far as a Red Wizard MotAO, the Spellpool specifically states that its spells do not qualify as spells known. Thus, no, that doesn't work, either.