Author Topic: Levels at which abilities are expected  (Read 8029 times)

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Tshern

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2011, 10:25:00 PM »
savage ghost progression gets incorporeality/etherealness, and a fly speed at level 1  (among other things)

divine minion template gets wildshape at level 1

pun pun gets everything at level 1

So we have a solution! Just a joke, mind you.

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2011, 10:31:39 PM »
savage ghost progression gets incorporeality/etherealness, and a fly speed at level 1  (among other things)

divine minion template gets wildshape at level 1

pun pun gets everything at level 1

So we have a solution! Just a joke, mind you.
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Tshern

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2011, 10:39:35 PM »
savage ghost progression gets incorporeality/etherealness, and a fly speed at level 1  (among other things)

divine minion template gets wildshape at level 1

pun pun gets everything at level 1

So we have a solution! Just a joke, mind you.
A solution that is one part fishy and three parts cheese.
Pun-Pun cheesy? But it works according to the rules!

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Bester

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2011, 12:58:14 AM »
I'm very in favor of this, but we need a range of earliest to the 'anyone can do it' ECL at the upper range. Prime are you going to be editing the OP to keep this up?

If this route is taken, then it should be easy to do the "anyone can do it" as a function of magic items and wealth.
Also like to mention that freedom of movement is gotten at 5th via heart of water.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2011, 01:45:54 AM »
Instead of showing the lowest level you can get this stuff, how about the lowest level at which enemies start appearing with the abilities that need counters?

+1. I'd find it more useful to know when I need a counter rather than build a character that has it at level X.

nijineko

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2011, 02:50:57 AM »
anthropomorphic bat (la=0) has flight at first level, as do certain hengeyokai.

awakened animals can have flight, but i seem to vaguely recall that that might not count as first level in certain cases.
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MalcolmSprye

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2011, 02:59:04 AM »
For the invisibility question(ignoring invisibility that is)... I've never seen anyone on these boards mention the Illusion Bane Weapon enchant. Is there a reason?  For a +1 mod, you ignore the effects of: blur, displacement, invisibility, and mirror image (and probably others I don't know about).  Those miss chances make up a lot of the personal defense that I see people talking about for casters.  Is there something wrong with it?

Endarire

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2011, 04:55:45 AM »
The pesronal mind blank can be had at L11 if you research it, or at L13 via Expanded Knowledge.

The spell blindsight (Cle3/Dru3, Spell Compendium 32) can be cast at L5.  The Diamond Mind5 stance Hearing the Air also grants 30' blindsight.

A psicrystal with Mindsight can effectively grant its master Mindsight at L1.  (Go go mental link!)

Toughsight, a L3 Psion power, also grants effective Blindsight.  You can even see people with the Darkstalker feat.
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Surreal

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2011, 10:51:29 PM »
I have a lot of ecl listings for abilities in my "lists of stuff" thread.
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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2011, 07:59:22 AM »
Instead of showing the lowest level you can get this stuff, how about the lowest level at which enemies start appearing with the abilities that need counters?

Of course, this will almost inevitably be from spellcasters, except for a few edge cases such as incorporeality (from shadows, I imagine).
This sounds more sensible.

I'm very in favor of this, but we need a range of earliest to the 'anyone can do it' ECL at the upper range. Prime are you going to be editing the OP to keep this up?
...yeah, probably not. :ninja
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2011, 09:34:00 AM »
Allow me to add in my corrections.


Ability Level Example sources (minimum character level)
Flight 2 Ghost(2)
Ignore all DR3(ex) Energy damage + Ghost (3)
Ignore incorporeality3Serren arrows + Ghost (3)
Ignore ethereality3Ghost (2)
Ignore invisibility3Torch bug paste +Ghost(3)
Ignore movement restrictions2Ghost (2)
Immunity to [Death]2Ghost (2)
Immunity to plain old regular death2Ghost (6)
Immunity to [Mind-affecting]2Ghost (2)
Immunity to Petrification2All the ones I can find require fort saves, so Ghost(2)
Immunity to Poison2Ghost(2)
Immunity to Disease2Ghost(2)
Immunity to Fear2Ghost(2)
Immunity to Angry Mob of Commoners with Pitchforks, torches, and Slings2Ghost(2)

This only confirms what I've been saying.  At high levels, ghost really does grant the [functional] subtype.


On the more useful side of things

-Mirror image can be countered with acid flasks very cheaply and effectively.  Torch bug paste is amazing as an illusion counter.
-You can get flight from being some kinds of planetouched.  Like air mephlings or fey'ri or gloamlings or aasimar with the right feats
-dealing with traps should probably be listed
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 09:37:10 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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MalcolmSprye

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2011, 11:49:14 AM »
I'm pretty sure I've seen people talk about immunity to ability damage.  What sorts of stuff grant that?

Also, regarding torch bug paste, that's pretty cool(and I'll definitely be looking into getting some in my current campaign), but from it's description it wouldn't help against mirror image (at least my reading of faerie fire doesn't seem to include mirror image, since it's not actually concealment). Against a caster you're looking at 2 full rounds to deal with invisibility + mirror images(take out torch bug paste, throw it, take out acid flask, throw it).  At which point, when you go to charge them, they put mirror image back up as an immediate action.  So yah... still not sure why illusion bane doesn't get mentioned for beat sticks.  That's a lot of action economy, which could be the difference between a clean kill, and getting bogged down in BFC.

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2011, 12:23:33 PM »
As a general rule of thumb, I go with the level after prepared casters get access to it. By then they should have enough slots of that level to memorize it reliably and also by then they are able to provide the spell for item crafting purposes (npc or beatstick pays the xp).
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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2011, 03:24:28 PM »
Quote
I'm pretty sure I've seen people talk about immunity to ability damage.  What sorts of stuff grant that?
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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2011, 03:34:34 PM »
I'd like to see this thread get back on track, which isn't lowest possible level. We already have lists like that. This is "Levels at which abilities are expected". For example, you could gain flight from Alter Self at 3rd level, but I'd consider flight to be expected at 5th or 6th level when casters can get Fly and the druid gets wildshape.

This has already been said, I just want to see it happen.   :rollseyes

Kajhera

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2011, 04:29:46 PM »
It would be cool to have an average and a standard deviation, from 'made to get at 1st level' to 'purchased with wealth by a fighter' sorta things. Like long-duration flight ... is gotten average of 7 or 8 and has a standard deviation of 2 or so (alter self fairly common, but not as much; ghosts and anthropomorphic winged things even less common; phantom steed granting it with a fair duration to anyone who pays for a caster's pearl of power at 14th or figures out some means of boosting caster level ...) even if standard deviation is perhaps the wrong word here. Something to indicate resource investment.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2011, 06:57:39 PM »
Against a caster you're looking at 2 full rounds to deal with invisibility + mirror images(take out torch bug paste, throw it, take out acid flask, throw it).  At which point, when you go to charge them, they put mirror image back up as an immediate action. 
Invisibility can't be combined with mirror image. 

And acid flasks are probably worth wasting one of your iteratives, provided you can sleight of hand them or something.  Or have a disposable creature just drop one.
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SneeR

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2011, 07:47:32 PM »
Invisibility can't be combined with mirror image. 

Whoa! Look at all of these invisible people! I wonder which one I'll go after...
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MalcolmSprye

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2011, 07:55:18 PM »
I thought mirror image mirrored your current appearance.  So if you're invisible... yah it does nothing... but if you're invisible, but glowing with faerie fire... then your images should look like invisible things glowing with faerie fire.  Is that wrong?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Levels at which abilities are expected
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2011, 08:56:56 PM »
I thought mirror image mirrored your current appearance.  So if you're invisible... yah it does nothing... but if you're invisible, but glowing with faerie fire... then your images should look like invisible things glowing with faerie fire.  Is that wrong?

I believe there's a clause in the spell itself that says mirror image does nothing if you're invisible.
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