Author Topic: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation  (Read 39291 times)

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Kajhera

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2011, 01:48:11 PM »
Ah... a featless warforged with an Everburning Torch is abusive.  :( But s/he's fine with Minor Creation making poison? As long as you don't buy an everburning torch?

It sounds like s/he has much to learn despite years of gaming. :) It took me a long time (years, yes) to learn to really use numerous enemies, so it was the high-HP-damage stealthy melee characters shining. The context of my campaign made that character archetype seem overpowered when it really isn't. Likewise s/he keeps catering to your BFC abilities and therefore they seem overpowered.  :p

If you had, say, more encounters with big critters with high-HD high-saves, your Walls of Energy would have lessened use, the fighter could show off his stuff better, the druid should do fine whatever, the cleric might have more opportunity to get in a flanking position, the ranger could shoot at it or something, and the paladin would have a relatively definite target to focus his Smite Evil powers on. Throw in some Frightful Presence and other fear abilities too.  :p

Summary: You do have a glaringly obvious weakness for him/her to exploit. It's called Dragons. (Well...if anyone else could fly. Let them ride an Astral construct or something or fight more sensible opponents fitting these guidelines.)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 01:52:40 PM by Kajhera »

Saeomon

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2011, 02:03:52 PM »
If you had, say, more encounters with big critters with high-HD high-saves, your Walls of Energy would have lessened use, the fighter could show off his stuff better, the druid should do fine whatever, the cleric might have more opportunity to get in a flanking position, the ranger could shoot at it or something, and the paladin would have a relatively definite target to focus his Smite Evil powers on. Throw in some Frightful Presence and other fear abilities too.  :p

Exactly! I mean, I'm never going to be useless in a fight so long as I have PP. I've made sure of that. It sucks to feel, much less be, useless. But there are definitely many, many scenarios in which I won't be as effective.

Personally, I think it's the out-of-combat uses of my powers which tick off my DM, with a particular hang-up being my attempts to use of Time Hop on doors. I think my DM views Rogues as living, breathing lockpicks and that only Rogues should ever be allowed to open locks. I'm sorry, but if I played a Rogue and the only challenge the DM ever threw my way was opening a door then I'd be more than a little miffed. I should tell my DM that by this logic, Knock should be banned, too.

I also think my DM has bought into the mindset that each player must have a specific role and that there can never be any overlap. Fighters swing swords. Rogues open chests. Clerics heal. Wizards cast Fireball. Anything that doesn't fit into that narrow paradigm gets beat down.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 02:08:55 PM by Saeomon »

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2011, 02:12:18 PM »
Your DM is uncreative and overly antagonistic.  I've just started to DM, and I haven't had to tell my players "no" yet even with a Wizard and a Planar Shepherd around.   I was under the impression it's a DM's job to facilitate the fun of the other players, not to try to beat them into the ground.

Kajhera

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2011, 02:13:30 PM »
If you had, say, more encounters with big critters with high-HD high-saves, your Walls of Energy would have lessened use, the fighter could show off his stuff better, the druid should do fine whatever, the cleric might have more opportunity to get in a flanking position, the ranger could shoot at it or something, and the paladin would have a relatively definite target to focus his Smite Evil powers on. Throw in some Frightful Presence and other fear abilities too.  :p

Exactly! I mean, I'm never going to be useless in a fight so long as I have PP. I've made sure of that. It sucks to feel, much less be, useless. But there are definitely many, many scenarios in which I won't be as effective.

Personally, I think it's the out-of-combat uses of my powers which tick of my DM, with a particular hang-up being my attempts to use of Time Hop on doors. I think my DM views Rogues as living, breathing lockpicks and that only Rogues should ever be allowed to open. I'm sorry, but if I played a Rogue and the only challenge the DM ever threw my way was opening a door then I'd be more than a little miffed.

Were I getting annoyed at that, I would personally probably make the lock pieces separate objects from the door, clatter to the ground, and generally set the door all out of whack when it came back.

While letting the rogue keep the door usable.

Doors are loot.  :p

Saeomon

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2011, 02:26:49 PM »
Were I getting annoyed at that, I would personally probably make the lock pieces separate objects from the door, clatter to the ground, and generally set the door all out of whack when it came back.

While letting the rogue keep the door usable.

Doors are loot.  :p

This makes me wish I had the Control Object power. Go go Attack Door!

Alas, not a Kineticist, and my DM (again despite the clear wording of the text) said that using independent research to gain Discipline-specific powers is "abuse" because it avoids the feat cost. Forgot to mention that in my earlier rantings.

Kajhera

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2011, 02:34:00 PM »
Were I getting annoyed at that, I would personally probably make the lock pieces separate objects from the door, clatter to the ground, and generally set the door all out of whack when it came back.

While letting the rogue keep the door usable.

Doors are loot.  :p

This makes me wish I had the Control Object power. Go go Attack Door!

Alas, not a Kineticist, and my DM (again despite the clear wording of the text) said that using independent research to gain Discipline-specific powers is "abuse" because it avoids the feat cost. Forgot to mention that in my earlier rantings.

To be fair, getting discipline-specific powers so easily does kind of invalidate that feat.

Saeomon

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2011, 02:42:49 PM »
Were I getting annoyed at that, I would personally probably make the lock pieces separate objects from the door, clatter to the ground, and generally set the door all out of whack when it came back.

While letting the rogue keep the door usable.

Doors are loot.  :p

This makes me wish I had the Control Object power. Go go Attack Door!

Alas, not a Kineticist, and my DM (again despite the clear wording of the text) said that using independent research to gain Discipline-specific powers is "abuse" because it avoids the feat cost. Forgot to mention that in my earlier rantings.

To be fair, getting discipline-specific powers so easily does kind of invalidate that feat.

I agree with you somewhat. I think the XP cost and the fact that you have to spend a general slot to pick up the researched power mostly makes up for it. But that's my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

But it's a moot point in the context of the campaign I'm in. I wasn't planning to do it anyway. I only brought it up to my DM for the sake of argument, and the "that's abuse" response is what I got.

It's stunning, frankly, how much "abuse" there is written into the system...

....

I've got another negative DM response to add. There's been so many that I've forgotten them and now they're flooding back.

So my DM's shoehorned onto Psions the Sorcerer spell swap method. To add insult to injury I don't get a retroactive swap for level 4 "because there are no zero-level Psion powers."
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 03:04:56 PM by Saeomon »

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2011, 03:20:14 PM »
  • My DM said that Psychoportive Shelter is the kind of power which was more likely to increase sudden ambushes.

And here I thought Psychoportive Shelter (also known as "rope trick, psionic") was the kind of power that decreased ambushes.
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Saeomon

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2011, 03:23:39 PM »
  • My DM said that Psychoportive Shelter is the kind of power which was more likely to increase sudden ambushes.

And here I thought Psychoportive Shelter (also known as "rope trick, psionic") was the kind of power that decreased ambushes.

What I think my DM was implying was this: that if I took away the "fun" of inflicting upon us random encounters on a nightly basis then those random encounters would instead occur during the 10 minutes required to manifest the power.

Drull

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2011, 03:38:08 PM »
To be fair, and maybe go a bit against the current in the thread, I dont really agree that its all the DMs fault and that he isnt your friend because he doesnt allow you to do whatever you want.

Yes, he seems to like for the games to go his way. And its understandable that you dont like it. But truth be told, by what you wrote down, your character is by far the strongest in the party. Only the druid might compare, and by what you've said, she (btw, that comment about her was really unnecessary) doesnt really do much except send her pet to kill stuff. And you obviously are trying to make your character shine even more. Nothing wrong with that in a regular game, but does it really come as a shock to you that he denied psychic reformation? Sure, phb2 gives the option to retrain, but its an alternate ruling (personally I allow it, but most people I talked to actually dont, but then again I allow most things and just ask that my players dont try to break the campaign).

The DM obviously isnt a CO regular, but there's no reason to bash on his friendship just because he doesnt share the same view about a game like you do.

Personally, if I was faced with a campaign like that, I'd probably try to pull of something weird like a no loops attached fochluran lyrist, black flame zealot (although your rogue/cleric seems to be going that way :P) or anything silly like that. But if you already chose a system unfamiliar to a conservative DM while being the most powerful player on the table (borderline overpowered from your DMs point of view) ... You really cant be surprised he takes some candy away from you.

You could just adapt to the situation and fling a few psionic fireballs around :).

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2011, 03:42:32 PM »
To be fair, and maybe go a bit against the current in the thread, I dont really agree that its all the DMs fault and that he isnt your friend because he doesnt allow you to do whatever you want.

Yes, he seems to like for the games to go his way. And its understandable that you dont like it. But truth be told, by what you wrote down, your character is by far the strongest in the party. Only the druid might compare, and by what you've said, she (btw, that comment about her was really unnecessary) doesnt really do much except send her pet to kill stuff. And you obviously are trying to make your character shine even more. Nothing wrong with that in a regular game, but does it really come as a shock to you that he denied psychic reformation? Sure, phb2 gives the option to retrain, but its an alternate ruling (personally I allow it, but most people I talked to actually dont, but then again I allow most things and just ask that my players dont try to break the campaign).

The DM obviously isnt a CO regular, but there's no reason to bash on his friendship just because he doesnt share the same view about a game like you do.

Personally, if I was faced with a campaign like that, I'd probably try to pull of something weird like a no loops attached fochluran lyrist, black flame zealot (although your rogue/cleric seems to be going that way :P) or anything silly like that. But if you already chose a system unfamiliar to a conservative DM while being the most powerful player on the table (borderline overpowered from your DMs point of view) ... You really cant be surprised he takes some candy away from you.

You could just adapt to the situation and fling a few psionic fireballs around :).

Drull, dealing with an anal retentive DM and dealing with another gamer hurling obvious and pointed insults (to the extent of bringing in past exploits no less, making it a blatantly calculated slap in the face) are two TOTALLY different ballgames.  As I said before, he's lucky it's Saemon and not me, as Saeomon seems to be a bit more level about it than my fire-headed ass would be :P
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bananaphone

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2011, 03:44:54 PM »
My DM said that if I was given a power which had the potential to be abused then I would abuse it, and made it clear that this accusation had to do with my specific style of play, adding that I was already skirting the line of abusing the system by making a character who didn't have any discernible weaknesses.

I responded that part of the fun to me is picking powers which are versatile, which does tend to minimize weakness, but which is a completely legitimate style of play.

My DM proceeded to list examples of when I had done "abusive" things, all of which had to do with my use of the Time Hop power to try to remove obstacles such as doors or prevent fellow PCs from reaching -10 HP in the middle of battle, saying these things stole the thunder of other players.

I replied that in case of the uses of Time Hop in battle, the uses made tactical sense, and that in the cases of using the power on doors I had always let the other players take the first crack at things.

 :banghead at the underlined portion.  So eliminating your weaknesses is frowned upon?  I didn't know "heroes" are supposed to strive for mediocrity.
Your uses of Time Hop are perfectly acceptable (obviously).  Perhaps you should ask him just how, in his mind, you are supposed to use Time Hop if not how you have been.

Anyways, it just seems like this DM is not ready for even the simplest of optimization and you should probably find another group.

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2011, 03:46:23 PM »
So does this DM like to jump from one tactical encounter to the next?  As in, downplaying/minimizing events and time between encounters because he likes to focus on the tactical encounters?
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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2011, 03:59:51 PM »
My DM said that if I was given a power which had the potential to be abused then I would abuse it, and made it clear that this accusation had to do with my specific style of play, adding that I was already skirting the line of abusing the system by making a character who didn't have any discernible weaknesses.

I responded that part of the fun to me is picking powers which are versatile, which does tend to minimize weakness, but which is a completely legitimate style of play.

My DM proceeded to list examples of when I had done "abusive" things, all of which had to do with my use of the Time Hop power to try to remove obstacles such as doors or prevent fellow PCs from reaching -10 HP in the middle of battle, saying these things stole the thunder of other players.

I replied that in case of the uses of Time Hop in battle, the uses made tactical sense, and that in the cases of using the power on doors I had always let the other players take the first crack at things.

 :banghead at the underlined portion.  So eliminating your weaknesses is frowned upon?  I didn't know "heroes" are supposed to strive for mediocrity.
Your uses of Time Hop are perfectly acceptable (obviously).  Perhaps you should ask him just how, in his mind, you are supposed to use Time Hop if not how you have been.

Anyways, it just seems like this DM is not ready for even the simplest of optimization and you should probably find another group.

Do not do as bananaphone suggests. This DM has shown that any time you ask for her input she bans whatever you're asking about. Just continue on the line you're on of useful, unbroken character design and let your DM learn along the way.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 04:02:24 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Drull

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2011, 04:00:28 PM »
Drull, dealing with an anal retentive DM and dealing with another gamer hurling obvious and pointed insults (to the extent of bringing in past exploits no less, making it a blatantly calculated slap in the face) are two TOTALLY different ballgames.  As I said before, he's lucky it's Saemon and not me, as Saeomon seems to be a bit more level about it than my fire-headed ass would be :P

Dont get me wrong, I agree that the DM is weird, but I'm just pointing out that maybe you're overreacting a bit (by you I mean comments in general  :p)

As you say, he's dealing with a anal retentive DM, who believes that not dying of old age (Elan) is overpowered, and doesnt see the abuse a thrallherd is capable of, but the point is that the DM IS like that. And when you push his boundaries (as silly as they may be) he will push back. Just a very stupid example now, I know, but if you came into a "normal" game, and tried to pull of some of the monstrosities we can see on these boards (just for example since the pour divine guy is mentioned so much presume pun pun) the DM no matter how liberal would be pissed as well. Thats (by my reading anyway) how it is for this DM and strong characters.

I'm not saying Saeomon is wrong, far from it, but if you look at it from the DMs perspective, you can see where the conflict came from.


Btw, where is that line about the DM insulting Seamon, only thing I read was

My DM proceeded to list examples of when I had done "abusive" things, all of which had to do with my use of the Time Hop power to try to remove obstacles such as doors or prevent fellow PCs from reaching -10 HP in the middle of battle, saying these things stole the thunder of other players.

while annoying as hell, arent really insults, just (again) a difference of a play style.

Saeomon

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2011, 04:08:02 PM »
To be fair, and maybe go a bit against the current in the thread, I dont really agree that its all the DMs fault and that he isnt your friend because he doesnt allow you to do whatever you want.

Yes, he seems to like for the games to go his way. And its understandable that you dont like it. But truth be told, by what you wrote down, your character is by far the strongest in the party. Only the druid might compare, and by what you've said, she (btw, that comment about her was really unnecessary) doesnt really do much except send her pet to kill stuff. And you obviously are trying to make your character shine even more. Nothing wrong with that in a regular game, but does it really come as a shock to you that he denied psychic reformation? Sure, phb2 gives the option to retrain, but its an alternate ruling (personally I allow it, but most people I talked to actually dont, but then again I allow most things and just ask that my players dont try to break the campaign).

The DM obviously isnt a CO regular, but there's no reason to bash on his friendship just because he doesnt share the same view about a game like you do.

Personally, if I was faced with a campaign like that, I'd probably try to pull of something weird like a no loops attached fochluran lyrist, black flame zealot (although your rogue/cleric seems to be going that way :P) or anything silly like that. But if you already chose a system unfamiliar to a conservative DM while being the most powerful player on the table (borderline overpowered from your DMs point of view) ... You really cant be surprised he takes some candy away from you.

You could just adapt to the situation and fling a few psionic fireballs around :).

Drull, dealing with an anal retentive DM and dealing with another gamer hurling obvious and pointed insults (to the extent of bringing in past exploits no less, making it a blatantly calculated slap in the face) are two TOTALLY different ballgames.  As I said before, he's lucky it's Saemon and not me, as Saeomon seems to be a bit more level about it than my fire-headed ass would be :P

Drull, before I respond to what you wrote, I want to say that I'm not upset at what you said. I think it takes guts to go against the current of a thread. I can respect that.

I've put myself in my DM's shoes and I actually can see things from the perspective of one running the game. Objectively speaking, yes, my character is powerful. Perhaps equal to the Druid, and arguably leaps and bounds ahead of other characters in the group. I won't dispute that.

I'm also willing to modify how I play the game in order to accommodate others, including the DM. I feel I've been reasonable all along.

What upsets me isn't what my DM has done but HOW my DM has done it. The manner in which my DM has responded to my inquiries, requests, and playstyle has been uniformly disrespectful. Like I said, this is somebody whom I've known for a long time, and I'm playing in a game with others both my DM and I have known for quite awhile. With all of my requests and inquiries, I approached my DM in the spirit of collaboration. My DM responded with an authoritarian hand.

To be treated like that by somebody I've known for years, gamed with in the past, and to whose authority as DM I was respectful was a shock and an insult.

To be blunt, I feel I'm being treated as a powergamer/munchkin/whatever-you-wanna-call-it that's out to break the game and ruin everybody else's fun. In light of my history with my DM and the circumstances I believe this treatment is wholly unfair.

So I'm left with two sad choices: I either soldier on, change my play style to accommodate my DM, and hope that things change; or I leave the group in as dignified a manner as possible.

My DM's made clear that there will be no compromises. From what my DM's said to me, I doubt there's much I can do to change their perception of me as a powergamer. Therefore, I'm leaning towards leaving.

As for anything I've said which can be interpreted as a slight upon the character of my DM's significant other, the other players, or even about my DM outside of the context of how this game is being run, I'm sorry. I don't intend to breed more ill will by making this about more than it is. Unfortunately, I'm feeling quite deeply wounded. Since my feelings are hurt I'm more likely to err and hurt others. For that I apologize.

Saeomon

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2011, 04:15:05 PM »
So does this DM like to jump from one tactical encounter to the next?  As in, downplaying/minimizing events and time between encounters because he likes to focus on the tactical encounters?

Nope. Quite a lot of downtime between encounters, mostly due to ad nauseum debates between the PCs about what to do next. We've got tons of different leads to follow and been given carte blanche about which leads we want to pursue and how to pursue them. My fellow players have actually commented on the need to cut down on the endless debating and, in the words of Monty Python, get on with it.

Gotta admit that sometimes I have my character act just to keep the action moving forward. I haven't been the only one to do so.

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2011, 04:23:36 PM »
Just pointing out that I agree that you were mistreated in the whole situation, I just gave the other side of the coin.

That said, even though you're hurt (and that really is obvious by the tone of your.....posts?) maybe you're limiting your options. You dont have to like the DM (although it does seem like you're actually hurt because you do like him and the comments were harsh and somewhat unexpected?), the more important question is... Are you having fun while gaming? If the answer is yes, then screw the DM, adapt to his whining (thats not being a little soldier, consider it a compromise) and keep having fun with your fellow gamers!

If not, well maybe leaving is really the best course of action because , in the end, we all group together to have fun  :D.

Btw, if it helps, i'm pretty sure that most of the people on these boards are considered powergamers in their groups  :lol, the 2nd DM in my group made it clear i'm forbidden to ever again play a druid in his campaigns  :P. And all it really took was an animal growthed bite of the werebeared dire tortoise....
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 04:26:59 PM by Drull »

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2011, 04:39:17 PM »
Btw, if it helps, i'm pretty sure that most of the people on these boards are considered powergamers in their groups  :lol, the 2nd DM in my group made it clear i'm forbidden to ever again play a druid in his campaigns  :P. And all it really took was an animal growthed bite of the werebeared dire tortoise....
Entertainingly, I'm probably the person in my group that is the most knowledgable of optomization, but my character is the weakest.  This isn't to say I'm not contributing (Goliath Warblade 6 Bloodstorm Blade 4 with Knockback and Shock Trooper makes for rather interesting battlefield control), but I just don't really compare with the Master of Many Forms, Sorcerer, or Incarnate.  I'm fine with this.  If I wanted to powergame, I would go with a Wizard, not a Psion.  Psions just have a couple of unique abilities (find a single wizard spell that lets you time travel, even if it's only in one direction/one round).
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 04:41:16 PM by snakeman830 »
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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2011, 04:44:19 PM »
Psions just have a couple of unique abilities (find a single wizard spell that lets you time travel, even if it's only in one direction/one round).
Teleport through Time. :p