Author Topic: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?  (Read 19179 times)

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Kaelik

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2011, 01:25:14 PM »
Kaelik, you call urpriest sublime CL tricks 'not cheese', and having multiple cohorts 'not cheese', and you call using a thought bottle 'cheese' and using sanctum spell 'cheese' and/or doing anything else that might make the erudite better or be on the 'automatic list of things erudites do' like being a focused specalist is for wizards or an elven generalist.  Metamagic rods aren't cheese, but manifester arrows are?  Sanctum spell is cheese but incantatrix isn't?

Have fun with your double standard, cause i'm not gonna bother arguing against it anymore.  After all, who cares if you're being an irrational dickhead if you beat someone in an internet argument?  That makes you a better person than them anyway, right?

Peace out.

--Rejakor

Remember how I said you fail at reading comprehension? Yeah, it's because you can't read. I specifically called out Ur Priest CL shenanigans as cheese that the Wizard would do if you used thought bottle, because thought bottle is the actual means to have absurd CL Ur Priesting, and to still be a viable character at every level. A StP erudite is not as good as a Wizard 20. Just that, if no cheese is involved. Incantatrix is cheese, Ur Priest is cheese, Infinite PP is cheese, infinite spells per day and infinite WBL are cheese. I don't care about what you think you can do with cheese, because I can gate in 4000HD bullshit and break the game with cheese with any class. I only care about not cheese, which means no infinite PP, no thought bottle XP tricks, and also no Incantatrix, or Gate, or Ur Priest thought bottle tricks.

FYI: Sanctum spell doesn't work like that.

The only interesting parts of these recurrent arguments of Class X vs Class Y are the neat tricks that people come up with to defend their position. I was hoping that you were going to tell me some neat trick explaining how to Mindrape at L3 with a Wizard.

Those are not interesting. How do you mindrape as a level 3 Wizard? The same way you do it as a level 2 Commoner.

1) You buy a Candle of Invocation. 2) You use it to Gate an Efferti, and wish for three things a) scroll of gate at CL 2000. b) Scroll of Mindrape c) +9999999 item to CL. (If level 2 commoner, wish for +99999999 circumstance bonus to UMD instead.) 3) Use Gate scroll 4) Order to lower spell resist 5) Order to fail save 6) use Mindrape scroll. 7) Use Prismatic Dragon to Gate in more Efferti, for more scrolls, for more Mindrapes. Or just have the Prismatic Dragon do it all himself. Who cares.

By relying on scrolls you are completely stomped into the ground by a competent artificer.

I am sure there are ways of hitting a DC 37 UMD check at level 3 just as there are ways to pass a DC 18 caster level check at level 3 with a decent chance of success.

Um... Are you stupid? The class is literally meaningless. It is impossible to be "stomped into the ground" because you are a level 3 character with Prismatic Dragons. Yes, if the MC decides someone else did it first, you lose, but so what. The point is that if you allow cheese, the entire game is instantly destroyed forever, so don't fucking allow cheese, hence, StP Erudite is not more powerful than a Wizard because he can get infinite PP, the Wizard can get infinite spells at level 2 or 3. But he doesn't because cheese is stupid, and likewise, the StP Erudite will not get infinite PP, because cheese is stupid.

nijineko

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2011, 02:35:25 PM »
i think power comparisons between a high level wizard and a high level stp erudite are not an effective use of time. each has a different area of focus and competence, partly determined by options selected. both are powerful enough to short circuit a campaign if not restrained by player or dm ethics and/or morals. let's just drop it and move on.

and regardless of which may or may not be more powerful, unless one or all of those involved in this disagreement are willing to give a complete analysis including charts and spreadsheets of every possible option a wizard or psion could take with cross comparisons and references (i think feats alone are 2-3000 options) and well reasoned statements as to why each and every option is or is not a good choice and under what circumstances, etc, etc... i really think that everyone should simply agree to disagree like adults and move on. getting upset about it and using increasingly insulting and foul language seems a bit silly.

back on topic:

in playing a level one stp erudite i discovered that it was difficult to compare with other characters who have options and abilities that do not have a limited number of uses per day. receiving permission, i began using the linked power - metapower effect to effectively double my power points, and to partly offset that problem. I am personally limiting it by careful selection of effects and applications, so as to not make a pest of my character. This has worked well so far as allowing me to last longer in combat and for more combats.

however, having to use such a combo in the first place to achieve effectiveness highlights to me the oddness of the rules regarding the erudite, and makes me wonder how and why such a class would have evolved or been developed into existence in the first place. likewise, i find that i have to rely on mundane methods and the dm to provide me with detailed descriptions of surroundings to attempt to take advantage of, rather than being able to rely solely on my class features to succeed in encounters.

it seems to me that the way such a character could actually succeed solely on its own merits will depend on the nature of the campaign to some degree, but also by selecting a niche and sticking to it until the uppd limit broadens out enough to allow for flexibility. maybe blaster focus, or scout focus.

i also find that unless the character happens to have really good physical stats, that my ability to effectively participate in a typical campaign (50-60% combat, 40-50% rp) is severely limited in combat situations and slightly limited in rp situations at low levels. easy access to magic items or psionic items can offset this, but simply maintains or widens the gap between my character and other characters.

transparency rules, depending on how applied, also broaden my usability, enabling me to use psicraft and knowledge psionics to identify magical effects in a generic fashion. upd skill likewise doubling for umd is quite useful. other knowledge checks retain their usefulness to the party in identifying creatures and providing information to the party, assuming the points are spent.

in conclusion, my personal experiences are that the stp erudite is strongest in rp situations, but weak in combat, especially at low levels, unless offset by some other circumstance - items, stats, creative dm & player, powerful option combos, etc.. in small groups, this can be a problem at low levels, unless the dm tailors things a bit to the player circumstances. in larger groups, the erudite can make an interesting and flavorful secondary or tertiary character at low level, and like the wizard or psion, becoming very powerful at mid to high levels.

this particular campaign died when two of the players decided to take a break from rp for a while in favor of other rl stuff. the dm didn't want to continue as they had specifically designed events for each player in the party, and lost motivation with two of the events no longer relevant. the group, however, continues with two new campaigns alternately run by two others of the group.
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Kaelik

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2011, 02:46:24 PM »
You do not actually know the rules. Link Power does not double your power points.

Rejakor

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2011, 03:22:17 PM »
Quote
linked power - metapower

You're a real cool guy, Kaelik.  Doesn't read posts and isn't afraid of anything.

nijineko

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2011, 03:38:42 PM »
You do not actually know the rules. Link Power does not double your power points.

my pardon. when using a level one power which costs one power point, and then joining metapower with linked power, where linked power turns the cost of the second linked power into metapsionic cost, and metapower reduces the metapsionic cost by two power points, the second first level power manifested by linked power which again costs one power point is reduced by the metapower effect by two power points, to a new total of zero power points - the lowest permitted; then in effect i am manifesting the first power for one power point, and the second power for zero power point. two for one, or in other words effectively doubling my power points. of course the term doubling can only be applied to a level one and level two psionicist, which since my character is, is an accurate, if not complete, way of describing the effect.

please note that in my original post, i stated that i "effectively doubled" which is exactly what i did. also note that that phraseology is not the same as saying that linked power doubles your power points; which i did not in fact say.

i leave everyone to draw their own conclusions about this. thank you for reading.
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Kaelik

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2011, 04:10:11 PM »
Quote
linked power - metapower

You're a real cool guy, Kaelik.  Doesn't read posts and isn't afraid of anything.

Funny, coming from you. Tell me again, is 200CL Ur Priest cheese?

You do not actually know the rules. Link Power does not double your power points.

my pardon. when using a level one power which costs one power point, and then joining metapower with linked power, where linked power turns the cost of the second linked power into metapsionic cost, and metapower reduces the metapsionic cost by two power points, the second first level power manifested by linked power which again costs one power point is reduced by the metapower effect by two power points, to a new total of zero power points - the lowest permitted; then in effect i am manifesting the first power for one power point, and the second power for zero power point. two for one, or in other words effectively doubling my power points. of course the term doubling can only be applied to a level one and level two psionicist, which since my character is, is an accurate, if not complete, way of describing the effect.

please note that in my original post, i stated that i "effectively doubled" which is exactly what i did. also note that that phraseology is not the same as saying that linked power doubles your power points; which i did not in fact say.

i leave everyone to draw their own conclusions about this. thank you for reading.

You are correct. I missed the metapower reference, as it appeared after, and I thought it was a different sentence.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2011, 04:18:51 PM »
You can actually manifest the Linked augmentation for an additional 2 power points, meaning you spend 3, reduce by 2, and still have 1 pp spent.

Thus, you're effectively tripling your pp spent at level 1 while only spending the normal amount. You also get a free Overchannel on the next round, only costing you your psionic focus.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2011, 05:58:04 PM »
Wait until he sleeps. I very much doubt he stands over the wizard keeping watch 24/7.

Also mindful of outside sources.
1. Your wizard is buying/researching spells from people/libraries. Why is he allowed and your not?
1a. Psionic versions of scrolls are called power crystals and guess what. You can learn from them.
1b. Why are other wizard's freely offering their spells up for trade but other spellcasters/psions are not? The list includes those wizard and is extra potently longer.
2. Have you outright killed every spellcaster so far? A little nonlethal damage can go a long way. Enemies are a useful way to learn spells to powers.
3. Hang tight, a few more levels and you can summon teachers and bribe/dominate them.

Heh ... one thing that bugged me about the Erudite's fluff text,
was that the Erudite "Fraternity" didn't really exist. Rather,
it was more likely the Erudite would sling Charms (either Arc or Psi)
and Hypno and Diplo and similar. This to get those yummy powers,
yanked off the NPC regardless of happy face interactions.
Gimme that !

If there's a Magic Mart available, the StP can by-pass the whole PsyRef loop.
Considering that a (Rogue + Magic Mart) combo is supposed to defeat a Factotum ...
why not allow an Erudite the same privilege ??
So a Wizard + Magic Mart is being compared to an Erudite StP + Magic Mart.
Wizard has the superior top level spells, and 9s to itself (when you get that high).
Erudite has those 2 levels later, and all the "Wizard" tricks from my last post, and Psi 9s.
Oh ... and then the Erudite -fests a PsyRef once, and has access
to all the Wizard goodies, the Magic Mart didn't have for the Wiz and the EStP.

SorO_Lost

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2011, 06:59:45 PM »
Wait until he sleeps. I very much doubt he stands over the wizard keeping watch 24/7.

Also mindful of outside sources.
1. Your wizard is buying/researching spells from people/libraries. Why is he allowed and your not?
1a. Psionic versions of scrolls are called power crystals and guess what. You can learn from them.
1b. Why are other wizard's freely offering their spells up for trade but other spellcasters/psions are not? The list includes those wizard and is extra potently longer.
2. Have you outright killed every spellcaster so far? A little nonlethal damage can go a long way. Enemies are a useful way to learn spells to powers.
3. Hang tight, a few more levels and you can summon teachers and bribe/dominate them.

Heh ... one thing that bugged me about the Erudite's fluff text,
was that the Erudite "Fraternity" didn't really exist. Rather,
it was more likely the Erudite would sling Charms (either Arc or Psi)
and Hypno and Diplo and similar. This to get those yummy powers,
yanked off the NPC regardless of happy face interactions.
Gimme that !

If there's a Magic Mart available, the StP can by-pass the whole PsyRef loop.
Considering that a (Rogue + Magic Mart) combo is supposed to defeat a Factotum ...
why not allow an Erudite the same privilege ??
So a Wizard + Magic Mart is being compared to an Erudite StP + Magic Mart.
Wizard has the superior top level spells, and 9s to itself (when you get that high).
Erudite has those 2 levels later, and all the "Wizard" tricks from my last post, and Psi 9s.
Oh ... and then the Erudite -fests a PsyRef once, and has access
to all the Wizard goodies, the Magic Mart didn't have for the Wiz and the EStP.

I can't help but feel there was a huge intermission between those posts.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2011, 07:06:44 PM »
Wait until he sleeps. I very much doubt he stands over the wizard keeping watch 24/7.

Also mindful of outside sources.
1. Your wizard is buying/researching spells from people/libraries. Why is he allowed and your not?
1a. Psionic versions of scrolls are called power crystals and guess what. You can learn from them.
1b. Why are other wizard's freely offering their spells up for trade but other spellcasters/psions are not? The list includes those wizard and is extra potently longer.
2. Have you outright killed every spellcaster so far? A little nonlethal damage can go a long way. Enemies are a useful way to learn spells to powers.
3. Hang tight, a few more levels and you can summon teachers and bribe/dominate them.


true true. so far we haven't been in any towns. all we have been doing is journeying on our way to towns or in towns where no one has been doing anything. his brother(another player whose back story is that their brothers)  has been protecting him 24/7. when hes away he wont let me touch him and when the other is awake he wont let me touch him. i might just have to do a STPE next time or some other time when i know theres a caster in the party and they dont expect me to do one.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2011, 07:10:47 PM »
Wait until he sleeps. I very much doubt he stands over the wizard keeping watch 24/7.

Also mindful of outside sources.
1. Your wizard is buying/researching spells from people/libraries. Why is he allowed and your not?
1a. Psionic versions of scrolls are called power crystals and guess what. You can learn from them.
1b. Why are other wizard's freely offering their spells up for trade but other spellcasters/psions are not? The list includes those wizard and is extra potently longer.
2. Have you outright killed every spellcaster so far? A little nonlethal damage can go a long way. Enemies are a useful way to learn spells to powers.
3. Hang tight, a few more levels and you can summon teachers and bribe/dominate them.


true true. so far we haven't been in any towns. all we have been doing is journeying on our way to towns or in towns where no one has been doing anything. his brother(another player whose back story is that their brothers)  has been protecting him 24/7. when hes away he wont let me touch him and when the other is awake he wont let me touch him. i might just have to do a STPE next time or some other time when i know theres a caster in the party and they dont expect me to do one.
Lay on the other side of the encampment pretending to sleep, and make Concentration checks to suppress the displays of repeated metapsionic'd ego whips on whichever brother is awake. Then do it to the one who is asleep. Then touch them inappropriately mind rape them devour their brains suck the spells out of their heads.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

RelentlessImp

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2011, 07:29:09 PM »
Wait until he sleeps. I very much doubt he stands over the wizard keeping watch 24/7.

Also mindful of outside sources.
1. Your wizard is buying/researching spells from people/libraries. Why is he allowed and your not?
1a. Psionic versions of scrolls are called power crystals and guess what. You can learn from them.
1b. Why are other wizard's freely offering their spells up for trade but other spellcasters/psions are not? The list includes those wizard and is extra potently longer.
2. Have you outright killed every spellcaster so far? A little nonlethal damage can go a long way. Enemies are a useful way to learn spells to powers.
3. Hang tight, a few more levels and you can summon teachers and bribe/dominate them.


true true. so far we haven't been in any towns. all we have been doing is journeying on our way to towns or in towns where no one has been doing anything. his brother(another player whose back story is that their brothers)  has been protecting him 24/7. when hes away he wont let me touch him and when the other is awake he wont let me touch him. i might just have to do a STPE next time or some other time when i know theres a caster in the party and they dont expect me to do one.
Lay on the other side of the encampment pretending to sleep, and make Concentration checks to suppress the displays of repeated metapsionic'd ego whips on whichever brother is awake. Then do it to the one who is asleep. Then touch them inappropriately mind rape them devour their brains suck the spells out of their heads.

You really had to work on being good there, didn't you?
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miz redavni

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2011, 08:09:44 PM »
Wait until he sleeps. I very much doubt he stands over the wizard keeping watch 24/7.

Also mindful of outside sources.
1. Your wizard is buying/researching spells from people/libraries. Why is he allowed and your not?
1a. Psionic versions of scrolls are called power crystals and guess what. You can learn from them.
1b. Why are other wizard's freely offering their spells up for trade but other spellcasters/psions are not? The list includes those wizard and is extra potently longer.
2. Have you outright killed every spellcaster so far? A little nonlethal damage can go a long way. Enemies are a useful way to learn spells to powers.
3. Hang tight, a few more levels and you can summon teachers and bribe/dominate them.


true true. so far we haven't been in any towns. all we have been doing is journeying on our way to towns or in towns where no one has been doing anything. his brother(another player whose back story is that their brothers)  has been protecting him 24/7. when hes away he wont let me touch him and when the other is awake he wont let me touch him. i might just have to do a STPE next time or some other time when i know theres a caster in the party and they dont expect me to do one.
Lay on the other side of the encampment pretending to sleep, and make Concentration checks to suppress the displays of repeated metapsionic'd ego whips on whichever brother is awake. Then do it to the one who is asleep. Then touch them inappropriately mind rape them devour their brains suck the spells out of their heads.

hmmm that would work :) BUT theres my characters brother. ok so theres 4 of us and a dm. im a stpe and im neu evil, theres my characters brother whos also a stpe and hes chaotic good, theres an ogre mage i cant remember his align, and his brother who is an ogre something and i cant remember his align.

its kindda hard to do evil things atm because my brother is always around and can tell when im doing evil stuff and my character is "trying" to be goodISH around him.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2011, 08:15:32 PM »
Then mindrape is the perfect solution. I doubt his Charisma score is that high. Bring him to his knees.

This is where everyone that's not you belongs.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2011, 08:34:41 PM »
This is where everyone that's not you belongs.
Then why were you telling him to suck things out of other people's heads? Sounds like you're advocating lockjaw.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2011, 05:07:20 PM »
Not Pac-man intermission(s)

... Jr. Pac-man intermissions(s).

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2011, 05:09:35 PM »
This is where everyone that's not you belongs.
Then why were you telling him to suck things out of other people's heads? Sounds like you're advocating lockjaw.
He's on his knees so the psion can suck his brains out.

Hee.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

RelentlessImp

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2011, 05:11:24 PM »
This is where everyone that's not you belongs.
Then why were you telling him to suck things out of other people's heads? Sounds like you're advocating lockjaw.
He's on his knees so the psion can suck his brains out.

Hee.

Mental image. My brain. Lyc, please stop luring me toward the dark side.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2011, 05:13:57 PM »
This is where everyone that's not you belongs.
Then why were you telling him to suck things out of other people's heads? Sounds like you're advocating lockjaw.
He's on his knees so the psion can suck his brains out.

Hee.

Mental image. My brain. Lyc, please stop luring me toward the dark side.
At least you wouldn't have to worry about telling your wayward son, "Luke...I am your father." Though you can still do the creepy heavy-breathing voice at people.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 05:16:12 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

RelentlessImp

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Re: What are your experiences with a Spell-to-Power Erudite?
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2011, 05:15:15 PM »
This is where everyone that's not you belongs.
Then why were you telling him to suck things out of other people's heads? Sounds like you're advocating lockjaw.
He's on his knees so the psion can suck his brains out.

Hee.

Mental image. My brain. Lyc, please stop luring me toward the dark side.
At least you wouldn't have to worry about telling your wayward son, "Luke...I am your father." Though you can still do the creepy heavy-breathing voice at people.

That usually gets the cops involved after a while, though.
Solo on Essentials
I prepared irresistible phantasmal killer today... as a 4th level spell.
"He hit me with a flaming garbage can...and then the god damn hobo next to it!"