Author Topic: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant  (Read 7226 times)

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Talore

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2011, 08:31:25 PM »
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If you're going to be a failtard about it, then forget it. Would you like to try again, this time with less fail and insults?

Relax. Seriously. It was exactly one insult, and light-hearted at that. For all the mean, nasty crap that you take on these boards, a light-hearted jab at a response which did not answer the question should hardly ping your radar. If I've misjudged entirely, and you're sensitive to even good-natured sniping, now would be an optimal time to speak up.

It's not about being bothered by the insults. It's about cracking down hard on anyone who would even consider disrespecting me, while at the same time wanting me to devote time and effort to help them. The reason why the fuckwit armies are so large is because I have been patient and tolerant. No more. Zero tolerance on failure.
"Cracking down" on them is what is making it worse, you are generating your own problem.

Nah, the problem started when I was patient with them. More and more failtards came out over time, because they thought it was safe.

And this is true. I'm a lot nicer when unprovoked by the fuckwit army. There's just so many of them.
Dude, half this board has just turned into people yelling at each other. The posting quality on average has gone way down, and now some threads are nigh unreadable. Ignoring people alleviates problems, trust me. It was a lot better when you just ignored them.
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Bard

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2011, 08:34:20 PM »
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The VOP monk proves that.  Who in their right mind would play that without major houserules?
VoP isn't ALWAYS a good/unbalanced choice, it really depends, in our campaigns (especially considering we usually play 12+ in Sigil) getting magic items is dead easy and if we can craft them we can make custom ones (subject to approval), so VoP is only a good choice for shapeshifting druids.

That said, Beatstick2 might be already to cramped in feats, but for sure for B1 the Craven feat would be useful. It's from Champions of Ruin lets people add their level to the damage of sneak attacks, at level 7, with 2 attacks would be 14 damage.

I've never liked the tripping builds, they tend to become useless against higher level monsters that start increasing in size/stats/number of legs/fly and such/etc... considering that he might want (or will want in a while if there's a lot of non medium-sized two-legged enemies) ask the DM to get a feat reset, with that his build can achieve a lot of nice things. For now I might suggest at least a one level dip in barbarian, with lion totem variant, it will at least increase his "uptime" on enemies. If he want to increase his attacks/damage, I'd go from there to Craven and warblade with tiger claw manouvers (tome of battle), haste weapon, etc... (basically trying to maximize the number of attacks and damage).

Both of the sneak-attackers WILL benefit from jems you put on weapons (and can change freely) from the Magic Item Compendium that can let you crit/sneak attack every kind of enemy (but I fear they're still too expensive for now)
Even with that I fear that the Single Weapon sneak attacker can't be easily saved, TWF is more or less a must to use efficently the sneak damage.

Archer for sure would benefit from a Splitting Bow (doubles his attacks), Greater Manyshot from XPH is pretty nice too, but I can't really think of anything else atm.
I'll get back if I think of anything else.
 
PS: sorry to interrupt the forum drama, you can go on now! *gets popcorn*
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2011, 08:34:44 PM »
... If you use polymorph, I expect you can keep them somewhat relevant for a while? I have no clue on the numbers, but if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Notsure when/if you get 8th level spells, but this actually sounds like an excellent possible use of Polymorph Any Object - since you have the high-power toys it seems - surely you can boost their power levels a decent amount with that, and they weren't using their int for anything important anyway. Even a duration of 12 hours might be plenty, and that is most things you would care to turn into.

Mixster

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2011, 08:36:20 PM »
Sunic has it right in the first comment. You need magic to compete if you play by the CR system. If you nerfed all the monsters so you could kill them faster than they could kill you, yeah, non-magicians would be more viable. But magic-users would be so much better it wouldn't matter if you attempted to compare them.

Your party can do fine if you enable the other characters to fill their niches. Make sure they have things like Freedom of movement, and soem sort of teleportation to get out of the worst Battlefield control spells, and you should be able to take out most "Level Appropriate" encounters.

I don't really see how "hitting things with sticks" in 3.5 is that bad, there's plenty of builds and ways to go out there to make an awesome meele or any kind of glass cannon without casting even a cantrip :\
(...)
Just to make an example in a party I played two years ago or so the biggest damage dealer we got at levels 17 to 21 was a Barbarian (and he wasn't "glass-y" at all)
You still need either Tome of Battle (which is magic), or freedom of movement (which is a spell). For the most rudimentary of Battlefield control spells.
Even the best build Damage Dealer/supercharger Funky lunky I can kill everything in one round has huge troubles with things like Solid Fog, and even worse, Wall of stone. Unless they have some way of getting out of there. Which is usually a spell, and pretty much always magic.

So my advice pretty much is:
To make them viable, you need them to be able to avoid the things that makes them "un"-viable. Think about what you would do if facing their character? The usual response is something like Black Tentacles for the Rogue; Solid Fog, Entangle or Glitterdust for the barbarian; and Various other tricks for their various hybrids. You have to get them ways to get around this. This is the reason why most well rounded "beatsticks" use Tome of Battle. Iron Heart surge, shadow jumps and their speed altering friends help protect you against battlefield control spells. Which is pretty darn useful.

Also, consider having the Rogue/fighter retrain to something like this:
Feat Rogue 4/Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 3/Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue +10.
Get him Daring Outlaw, and he's sneak attacking much better. At the cost of a few BAB he'll also get neat rogue abilities, more feats, more skills, better saves and all that nice jazz. It is an odd reading of daring outlaw, but totally RAW. And not broken.

He would step on Beatstick ones toes though. But they really almost fill the same niche already. All three of them does actually.

Oh, and they all seem to be relying on precision damage, remember to get them at least true-death crystals. But properly also ways to sneak attack other things.

If the VoP monk can retrain, Monk 5/Ur-Priest 2/Sacred Fist 10 is decent with an Ur-Priest adaptation being about equal with a full caster around level 10-15. VoP Wont matter that much to a guy such as him. Although it is still bad.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Bard

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2011, 08:42:56 PM »
You still need either Tome of Battle (which is magic), or freedom of movement (which is a spell). For the most rudimentary of Battlefield control spells.
Even the best build Damage Dealer/supercharger Funky lunky I can kill everything in one round has huge troubles with things like Solid Fog, and even worse, Wall of stone. Unless they have some way of getting out of there. Which is usually a spell, and pretty much always magic.

Well yes, of course, they need support casters (clerics, wizards, etc) to keep them going, and magic item and trinkets, possibly class abilities/manouvers (I love ToB) etc.. Plus they'll hardly be as useful and versatile as most caster are outside combat (especially with that totally broken cheap sleep-sack that lets them refresh/change spells in 75 minutes). I was just talking of "non casters". If you shadow-teleport-pounce them to death shapechanged in a hydra for hundreds of attacks in a round, you still aren't a caster :P
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2011, 08:53:48 PM »
You still need either Tome of Battle (which is magic), or freedom of movement (which is a spell). For the most rudimentary of Battlefield control spells.
Even the best build Damage Dealer/supercharger Funky lunky I can kill everything in one round has huge troubles with things like Solid Fog, and even worse, Wall of stone. Unless they have some way of getting out of there. Which is usually a spell, and pretty much always magic.

Well yes, of course, they need support casters (clerics, wizards, etc) to keep them going, and magic item and trinkets, possibly class abilities/manouvers (I love ToB) etc.. Plus they'll hardly be as useful and versatile as most caster are outside combat (especially with that totally broken cheap sleep-sack that lets them refresh/change spells in 75 minutes). I was just talking of "non casters". If you shadow-teleport-pounce them to death shapechanged in a hydra for hundreds of attacks in a round, you still aren't a caster :P

Yeah, but you've probably used more than a cantrip :)

But ok. Then we pretty much agree anyway. Just wanted to make that certain.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Bester

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2011, 08:58:28 PM »
If the VoP monk can retrain, Monk 5/Ur-Priest 2/Sacred Fist 10 is decent with an Ur-Priest adaptation being about equal with a full caster around level 10-15. VoP Wont matter that much to a guy such as him. Although it is still bad.

A few of my fellow DM/Players came up to me 2 weeks ago and said "we found this awesome feat, VoP"

"I want to try it on my monk, it says it's good for a monk."

I said sure enough, I'll even let you take it as if you were 1st level.  Just be sure to hand back all your money and magic items.

That ended the discussion.

Mixster

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2011, 09:04:34 PM »
If the VoP monk can retrain, Monk 5/Ur-Priest 2/Sacred Fist 10 is decent with an Ur-Priest adaptation being about equal with a full caster around level 10-15. VoP Wont matter that much to a guy such as him. Although it is still bad.

A few of my fellow DM/Players came up to me 2 weeks ago and said "we found this awesome feat, VoP"

"I want to try it on my monk, it says it's good for a monk."

I said sure enough, I'll even let you take it as if you were 1st level.  Just be sure to hand back all your money and magic items.

That ended the discussion.

Well in a Tier 5 game it is wonderful. Playing a Tier 5 game is also great fun, as long as you can explain to the guy who usually plays a wizard that he can't do that any longer.

In a game where you have to compete with tier 1s, never getting flight is bad in itself. But all the other ways VoP screws you over is just terrible.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Bard

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2011, 09:29:50 PM »
In a game where you have to compete with tier 1s, never getting flight is bad in itself. But all the other ways VoP screws you over is just terrible.

And that is why you shouldn't ever get it if you're not a shapeshifting druid :P
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2011, 09:32:49 PM »
In a game where you have to compete with tier 1s, never getting flight is bad in itself. But all the other ways VoP screws you over is just terrible.

And that is why you shouldn't ever get it if you're not a shapeshifting druid :P
Or an incarnum character.

Because VoP totally works for them. Maybe not as good as non-VoP, but it does work well in a low-wealth campaign (in which case you'll still want to be a caster, but whatever).
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2011, 09:36:18 PM »
You might be able to use VoP well with a ghost.

First, since you never actually are personally carrying any magic items.  They're on your corpse, and graverobbing is distinctly not exalted.  

Second, because the feat says "To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions," and you are clearly ethereal.

 ;) :p
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Bester

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2011, 09:41:26 PM »
In a game where you have to compete with tier 1s, never getting flight is bad in itself. But all the other ways VoP screws you over is just terrible.

And that is why you shouldn't ever get it if you're not a shapeshifting druid :P
Or an incarnum character.

Because VoP totally works for them. Maybe not as good as non-VoP, but it does work well in a low-wealth campaign (in which case you'll still want to be a caster, but whatever).

I'd only go that route if the extra exalted feats could be selected as incarnum feats instead.  VoP really suffers from actually being 2 feats.

Endarire

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2011, 10:00:39 PM »
I like greater magic weapon chained.

Can your group persist the Favored Soul's spells?  Prayer and bless and shield of faith are something for everyone.

What about asking for the party to contribute Pearls of Power?
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Speaking of which:
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Bard

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2011, 11:00:44 PM »
I like greater magic weapon chained.

Can your group persist the Favored Soul's spells?  Prayer and bless and shield of faith are something for everyone.

What about asking for the party to contribute Pearls of Power?

Every buff he casts, works on all party anyway since he's a War Weaver.

Also I just noticed the fact you'll be a Spellguard, that at level 5 lets you cast personal buffs on others!
Then you just HAVE TO get Arcane Disciple --> Competition Domain. In one single feat you get to cast on your whole party Righteous Might, Divine Power and Greater Visage of the Diety (plus you get some other nice buffs).
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Gods_Trick

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2011, 11:34:40 PM »

My wizard/war weaver has been spamming heavy buff action, and the non-magical characters are still doing well with Ability Enhancer + Animalistic Power, Enlarge BSF, and Haste. With heavy support how long until they look under-powered? 9th? 11th?


I can answer this, IMO anyway. Normal players rarely measure abilityo r power against theor opposition, they compare against their team mates. Go figure. Its never 'that Hydra did 16d10 damage!' Its, 'Wow, Bob's barbarian did 200 damage. Thats crazy overpowered!' :rollseyes  Which is why normal =/= optimisers.

Battles are going to flat out take longer, because HP grind gets harder. As long as you keep buffing intelligently, your ability wont highlight their inabilty. However IP says that their going to die more. Try to get a cheaper source of ressurection on hand, which the Dweomerkeeper should be able to do easily.

Theres been some good suggestions about the spells you can use to keep their casualties down already. + 1 to Freedom of Movement and Polymorph. Shadow Phase I haven't played with before, but sounds very useful.

Good luck.

Bard

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2011, 12:00:14 AM »
true, with Spellguard you can polymorph them too... (or just an alter self if you want to give them alternate movespeeds or whatnot).
But, if it's polymorph, I might suggest Draconic Polymorph, it's the same as polymorph but adds some nice UNTYPED bonuses to str/cos (and maybe something else, can't remember.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Akalsaris

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2011, 12:19:32 AM »
You might be able to use VoP well with a ghost.

First, since you never actually are personally carrying any magic items.  They're on your corpse, and graverobbing is distinctly not exalted.  

Second, because the feat says "To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions," and you are clearly ethereal.

 ;) :p

 :lmao

Gods_Trick

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2011, 12:37:52 AM »
You might be able to use VoP well with a ghost.

First, since you never actually are personally carrying any magic items.  They're on your corpse, and graverobbing is distinctly not exalted.  

Second, because the feat says "To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions," and you are clearly ethereal.

 ;) :p


 :lmao

TML till what mad ends will of language twisting will you go to have us all playing ghosts?! Will you even optimise VoP!
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 01:58:26 AM by Gods_Trick »

JaronK

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2011, 12:56:57 AM »
Second, because the feat says "To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions," and you are clearly ethereal.

Touche sir.  Touche.

As for the OP: the usual rule applies when you play a character that's much stronger than everyone else.  You buff everyone else and debuff enemies (not too much!) so everyone gets to be useful.  Don't cut loose with full power... you're not at the same playing field they are (especially that poor Rogue/Swashbuckler!) and it'll show.  Personally, I hate having that restriction (it's obviously metagaming) which is why I tend to play weaker characters these days.

JaronK

Iskajir

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2011, 03:39:18 AM »
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VoP isn't ALWAYS a good/unbalanced choice, it really depends,
I would say it is always bad/unbalanced (interesting word-twisting aside). At 6th level that character has a noticeably more limited options than anyone else. Keeping him relevant and useful is impossible at this stage is not part of my goals. I will settle for mostly alive (dead no more often than anyone else?), since this is one of the player's most non-offensive PC's ever.

Quote
I've never liked the tripping builds, they tend to become useless against higher level monsters that start increasing in size/stats/number of legs/fly and such/etc...
This is already the case to some extent. The buff routine is vital to keeping everything that can be tripped down.

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I like greater magic weapon chained.

Me too. What's not to like. :)

Quote
Can your group persist the Favored Soul's spells?  Prayer and bless and shield of faith are something for everyone.
Quote
The VOP monk proves that.  Who in their right mind would play that without major houserules?

Not at the moment. Also, we would really need to get him picking better spells. He has CLW, Ray of Hope, Summon Monster I, and is looking at Light of Lunia for his next spell. I apparently don't blast enough, and it offends him. Deeply. To his core. I am not suiting his mental image of a wizard. If I say, "banning evocation" it sometimes cause him a little involuntary shudder of revulsion. This is entirely its own rant.

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What about asking for the party to contribute Pearls of Power?

They have already offered to pick up a Rod of Bodily Restoration for some of the sanctified spells, so I'd say there's a good chance of this.


Quote
As long as you keep buffing intelligently, your ability wont highlight their inabilty. However IP says that their going to die more. Try to get a cheaper source of ressurection on hand, which the Dweomerkeeper should be able to do easily.

If frontline fighters die more often than the hidden flying mage, I think it can be reasonably argued that they were simply in more danger.

Quote
+ 1 to Freedom of Movement
Well, I doubt I will ever go out without Heart of Water ever again, but is there a way to get it for others arcanely? My thought is that this is best left to the divine casters.

Quote
Notsure when/if you get 8th level spells, but this actually sounds like an excellent possible use of Polymorph Any Object
16th. I only lose one spell level. It stung a bit.


There are more useful responses than above, but I am tired beyond words. I will bring popcorn and check on the VoP ghosts later.  :lmao