Author Topic: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes  (Read 3087 times)

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Endarire

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Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« on: February 27, 2011, 05:22:21 PM »
Let's assume I charm someone.  I treat him with utmost kindness and no one tries to go hostile on him.  His initial attitude was Unfriendly but now is Friendly because he's charmed.

Then the power expires.

1: What's his attitude now?
2: Let's assume I use Diplomacy to improve the charmed guy's mood by 1 step to Helpful while he's charmed.  When he's uncharmed, what's his attitude?  How does telempathic projection affect his uncharmed attitude?
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2011, 05:28:50 PM »
Unfriendly because he only was your friend due to the Charm. No rules suggest otherwise and so this is the default course of action.

After Diplomancing him? Uh... Friendly makes sense I guess. Strict RAW he might stay Helpful after the charm? NPC moods are pretty heavy Magic Tea Party Land and mixing effects like this only compounds it.

Nunkuruji

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2011, 09:32:59 PM »
What I find funny about Charm Person is that by default it has V,S.

So without additional effort, most people are going to know you cast a spell, and those with spellcraft will know you have cast Charm Person.

skydragonknight

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2011, 09:39:04 PM »
What I find funny about Charm Person is that by default it has V,S.

So without additional effort, most people are going to know you cast a spell, and those with spellcraft will know you have cast Charm Person.


True (and worth noting), but doesn't matter in the case of the Charm power, which was the one specified.
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X-Codes

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2011, 09:50:45 PM »
What I find funny about Charm Person is that by default it has V,S.

So without additional effort, most people are going to know you cast a spell, and those with spellcraft will know you have cast Charm Person.

One of the many reasons Conceal Spellcasting is awesome.

altpersona

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2011, 10:07:55 PM »
also why diplomacy is awesome.

it also may require v/s components.
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Hazren

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2011, 01:27:10 AM »
Let's use Hypnotism, a 1st level spell, if you are going to use spells.

Let's say the person was indiffent to you to start with.

The spell moves their attitude 2 steps up on the NPC attitude table in regards to a single request. A request like "Will you protect me  to the best of your ability?".After spell ends goodness, it stays that way even when the spell ends in as it regards your request.

Now lets go one further. Cast it again and you have a fantical protector. Hazren's first law of Min/Max states "Here imagination has to be balanced against the GM's abilty to fling a book accurately at your head or groin". :twitch

Even if you started out with them unfriendly you are there in two castings of the spell.

Will effect "living creatures". That means you could have a succubus as your own warrior maiden if worded correctly and of course the right feats to boost it.
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X-Codes

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2011, 02:28:51 AM »
Charm Person (or Charm Monster, if necessary) + Hypnotism = Fanatical.

Psithief

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 03:24:45 AM »
Assuming your DM uses Fanatic as an attitude...

isn't that v3.0 ELH only?

X-Codes

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2011, 03:53:15 AM »
Assuming your DM uses Fanatic as an attitude...

isn't that v3.0 ELH only?
The ELH material in the SRD has been officially updated to 3.5e.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2011, 05:12:02 AM »
Since it would seem there isn't a RAW answer, it looks like GM discretion.

I'd make it work like Intimidate: They're cooperative during, but afterward they resent you.

You force a person to view as a friend with a spell, they know it's a spell, you're nice to them while they're your friend, but after the spell expires the best you've got is Stockholm Syndrome.

In the absence of minority fetishes, people don't like being compelled to do things. They hate it in fact, more than they hate most anything else.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2011, 12:17:56 PM »
Since it would seem there isn't a RAW answer, it looks like GM discretion.

I'd make it work like Intimidate: They're cooperative during, but afterward they resent you.

You force a person to view as a friend with a spell, they know it's a spell, you're nice to them while they're your friend, but after the spell expires the best you've got is Stockholm Syndrome.

In the absence of minority fetishes, people don't like being compelled to do things. They hate it in fact, more than they hate most anything else.
Depends on whether or not they know they've been manipulated, of course.

Hallack

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2011, 02:31:36 PM »
Since it would seem there isn't a RAW answer, it looks like GM discretion.

I'd make it work like Intimidate: They're cooperative during, but afterward they resent you.

You force a person to view as a friend with a spell, they know it's a spell, you're nice to them while they're your friend, but after the spell expires the best you've got is Stockholm Syndrome.

In the absence of minority fetishes, people don't like being compelled to do things. They hate it in fact, more than they hate most anything else.
Depends on whether or not they know they've been manipulated, of course.
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Hazren

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2011, 05:56:01 PM »
Since it would seem there isn't a RAW answer, it looks like GM discretion.

I'd make it work like Intimidate: They're cooperative during, but afterward they resent you.

You force a person to view as a friend with a spell, they know it's a spell, you're nice to them while they're your friend, but after the spell expires the best you've got is Stockholm Syndrome.

In the absence of minority fetishes, people don't like being compelled to do things. They hate it in fact, more than they hate most anything else.

This is why I like Hypnotise as it spells out what happens when the spell ends and that they remain more inclined to you by +2 on the NPC attitude table.

Unlike Charm spell, which a DM can use all sorts of material to screw up your attempt to control afterward, Hypnotise leaves no wiggle room if you word that request correctly.

Another reason I like Hypno better than charm, A DM ruled that once the charm ended the attitude reset to hostile and that the hypnotise then improved it by +2. Still took another Hypnotise to get me where I wanted to be. So now I cut out the middle man so to speak and go back to back hypnotise.
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Nunkuruji

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2011, 06:41:02 PM »
Except for the ringing, the cursed RINGING!

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#display

(ok, step away +15ft)

Bozwevial

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2011, 06:43:51 PM »
Except for the ringing, the cursed RINGING!

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#display

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Concentration check, DC 16. :P

Nunkuruji

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2011, 06:54:11 PM »
or that :)

Makes for an interesting low level plot device

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awaken DM golem

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2011, 08:38:04 PM »
Charm makes them Friendly.
It lasts quite a while.
I like BrB's answer for when it expires.

Hypnotism improves reaction by +2.
I don't think it would stack, but perhaps an argument is useful.
In any case, when the spell expires:
"Even after the spell ends, the creature retains its new attitude toward you, but only with respect to that particular request."


OK ... it's cheese time  :D
Charm + Hypno as X-codes said, equals Fanatic, but it'll jointly expire.
"particular request" has to be worded (and worked out) to receive another Diplo attitude adjustment.
Intentionally flub the next Diplo check, but not a total fail.
** Only to make the attitude adjustment stay the same !!
Hypno expires, but doesn't have anything to do with current attitude, caused by latest Diplo check.
Charm expires, and also doesn't have anything to do with current attitude. caused by latest Diplo check.

If this is too cheesy (and it is soo creamy and gooey)
the "particular request" just has to be allowing the Charm + Hypno again.

 :love : "You tricked me ... and I liked it."


EDIT ... and then there's the Half Fey racial class.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 08:50:44 PM by awaken DM golem »

Hallack

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Re: Charming, Diplomacy, and Attitudes
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2011, 11:24:40 AM »
Cast Hypnotism...  "Hey, give me a chance to explain and earn your trust"
Make Diplomacy Check to modify Attitude

Or perhaps "Consider me your friend" could be the request which would continue after the spell expiration.
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