Author Topic: Fuck You to casters.  (Read 60862 times)

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wotmaniac

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #80 on: February 28, 2011, 05:28:22 PM »
If it's a special ability, it is by definition not a natural ability.
A-ha!
I (and thus you) was wrong.
there is nothing magical about the ability to cast spells.  spellcasting (the ability) is not in-and-of-itself magical -- the resulting spell might be, but that's actually something different.

"natural abilities" are the only abilities that are not specifically marked (as opposed to Ex, Su, and Sp).
While technically true, natural abilities are also not listed under "special attacks" or "special qualities", yet spells are.  By the fact they are listed under such, we can assume that they are somehow "special", or "non-natural".
I think that's a formatting issue with the monsters' stat blocks.
the fact that spells appear in the special attacks section is a result of it not fitting in with any other part of the stat block.
besides, "special attack" and "special quality" are not specifically defined terms like "special ability" is -- it's more of a descriptive thing (albeit with a standardized usage -- but that's a different thing from having a specific, formal definition).

The conclusion should be clear: spellcasting is not an ability at all.

Disclaimer: this message does not necessarily represent the opinions of the poster, BeholderSlayer. Well, at least not based on the exact wording of the rules.

Common sense, of course, would lead to this conclusion.
The point I was making was that, in the case of spellcasting, the word "ability" is a generic descriptive term; as opposed to a specific defining term (which is the case with "special ability")
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 05:30:54 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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wotmaniac

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2011, 05:34:46 PM »
What? -- wait a minute ....
what was the whole point of this particular argument?  I can't even tell where it came from, or why such a clear definition was needed.
:shrug

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Amechra

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2011, 06:22:43 PM »
This is what I love about these forums; we argue about things for no reason at all, that are almost unrelated to the thread.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2011, 06:26:23 PM »
This is what I love about these forums; we argue about things for no reason at all, that are almost unrelated to the thread.
No we don't.  :p
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Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2011, 06:36:28 PM »
That's not an argument, that's a contradiction!
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2011, 06:51:52 PM »
Seriously?  People are claiming the ability to cast spells isn't an ability?  It's listed under "Special Attacks" in monster entries.  Special attacks are a subset of special abilities.  Plus, you know, it's an ability pretty much by definition, since everything a character can do (even breathing air) counts as an ability (though breathing air is, of course, Na, as it's not a special ability).  I can't believe people are now trying to argue that "Spells" isn't a special ability.  Open up the Monster Manual, find the first monster with the ability to cast spells, look where it's written.  Now look at the next monster.  Now the next one.  Now the next one.  Now do the same for MMII.  And III.  And just in case anyone's not clear, the phrase "extraordinary special attacks" comes up in numerous places (such as Rules of the Game: All About Polymorph, which has the most designer discussion on the topic of ability types).

Plus, we've got people claiming that only Na abilities are unlabeled and spells must be Na... go look at the PHB.  Check the Fighter.  See "Bonus Feats?"  It's an ability.  It's not labeled.  But feats are always Ex.  Now look at all the other classes, and note how class abilities that aren't magical are almost always unlabeled... but since they're Special Abilities, they can't be natural (also, check out the multiple definitions of Natural which all state without exception that they're stuff inherent to the form of the creature... NOT things you learn).  So, that leaves Ex.

If you look through the books, you will in fact find that virtually every ability that's not labeled, but is in fact listed as a special ability or special attack, is in fact Ex.  Improved Grab?  Ex.  Sneak Attack?  Ex.  Bonus Feats?  Ex.  Spells?  Well, there's a kinda obvious pattern...

But just for anyone not clear on what Na abilities are, here's some definitions:

Rules of the Game: 
Quote
Natural Ability: This term is a catch-all for just about anything a creature can do (or characteristic that it has) that is not extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. Natural abilities include most speed ratings (some very high speeds are not "natural," see the section on the alter self spell), mode of breathing (lungs, gills), natural armor and weaponry, general appearance, body type, and the presence or absence of the five basic senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, pain). When polymorphing, you generally lose your own natural abilities and gain those of your assumed form.

PHB Glossary: 
Quote
A nonmagical capability, such as walking, swimming (for aquatic creatures), and flight (for winged creatures.

PHB 180: 
Quote
Natural Abilities:  This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature, such as a bird's ability to fly.  Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like

As you can see, it's not stuff you learn to do.  It's stuff based on what you physically are.  A Solar's fly speed is Na because it has wings.  Its ability to cast spells?  Not so much.

JaronK

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2011, 07:08:35 PM »
Hey look guys, it's Jaron failing some more, and his trap girlfriend questioning the maturity of people while linking to random porn.

So, standard Jaron and Jarona Fail?
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #87 on: February 28, 2011, 07:18:28 PM »
Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

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Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #88 on: February 28, 2011, 07:20:27 PM »
Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.

No, you cannot ignore yourself.

Hi Welcome
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #89 on: February 28, 2011, 07:21:30 PM »
Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.
I wish, honestly.  Some people just butt heads even when they're on the same side of the argument (e.g., Sunic and Jaron)
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Littha

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #90 on: February 28, 2011, 07:21:59 PM »
Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.

If it did i would have done it to you weeks ago.

Talore

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #91 on: February 28, 2011, 07:23:17 PM »
Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.
Funny enough: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11214.msg384119#msg384119
Backseat moderator (voice) -_-

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #92 on: February 28, 2011, 07:30:32 PM »
Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.

If it did i would have done it to you weeks ago.
It would be your loss. :shakefist

Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.
Funny enough: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11214.msg384119#msg384119
Look Littha. You can make your wish come true. :D

BTW. Am I on your "Ignore" list because I don't like Sunic and he's your God, or Am I THAT annoying? :( I can confess that I'm trolling, but only him. And I've seen worse trolls in here.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 07:34:26 PM by Anarchy_Kanya »
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Mixster

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2011, 07:43:18 PM »
Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.

No, you cannot ignore yourself.

Hi Welcome

This was evil and smuck. But I couldn't help laughing.

---

Anyway, I'm probably fine with Spellcasting being either Na or Ex. As long as we can agree that it isn't Su or Sp. And it is a typed ability.

But, I have one last statement. To my knowledge, Natural abilities are dependent on your race. Isn't it Extraordinary if it is something you've learned?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2011, 07:49:49 PM »
Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.

No, you cannot ignore yourself.

Hi Welcome

This was evil and smuck. But I couldn't help laughing.
Yeah. I knew he would post something like that. I gave him this, so he could make his pathetic life a little merrier.

Hm... What monsters does have casting? Don't they "learn" spellcasting as any other creature but it is mechanicly (for simplicity) build in their "race"?
Dragons... They have casting as Sorcerers, so they can learn casting spells as Sorcerers do. Their magical blood enabless casting but without years and years of practice (like Sorcerers) they couldn't cast.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 07:51:58 PM by Anarchy_Kanya »
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2011, 07:50:03 PM »
Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.

If it did i would have done it to you weeks ago.
It would be your loss. :shakefist

Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.
Funny enough: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11214.msg384119#msg384119
Look Littha. You can make your wish come true. :D

BTW. Am I on your "Ignore" list because I don't like Sunic and he's your God, or Am I THAT annoying? :( I can confess that I'm trolling, but only him. And I've seen worse trolls in here.
Maybe Talore doesn't like girls?
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I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2011, 07:52:41 PM »
This was directed to Littha. :D
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Mixster

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #97 on: February 28, 2011, 07:53:00 PM »
Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.

If it did i would have done it to you weeks ago.
It would be your loss. :shakefist

Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.
Funny enough: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11214.msg384119#msg384119
Look Littha. You can make your wish come true. :D

BTW. Am I on your "Ignore" list because I don't like Sunic and he's your God, or Am I THAT annoying? :( I can confess that I'm trolling, but only him. And I've seen worse trolls in here.
Maybe Talore doesn't like girls?
WHAT!? IS THERE A GIRL IN HERE!??!?!?!?!? EVACUATE!
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

Bester

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #98 on: February 28, 2011, 07:56:04 PM »
WHAT!? IS THERE A GIRL IN HERE!??!?!?!?!? EVACUATE!

Stop making me think of Anchorman! :lmao

Elaboration on that:
Brick Tamland: [opposing women in the newsroom] I read somewhere their periods attract bears. Bears can smell the menstruation.
Brian Fantana: Well, that's just great. You hear that, Ed? Bears. Now you're putting the whole station in jeopardy.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 07:58:52 PM by Bester »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #99 on: February 28, 2011, 08:23:02 PM »
Does this boards have an "Ignore" button? Coz' I'm tired of seeing this can of lies, fail & whinyness.
I wish, honestly.  Some people just butt heads even when they're on the same side of the argument (e.g., Sunic and Jaron)

Since when have me and Jaron agreed on anything? Sure it's happened before, in the past, but he also wasn't a failtard then, so I wasn't smiting him.

Not seeing any instances of times where he's been right since he decided to stop failing.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]