Author Topic: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function  (Read 38958 times)

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Ras F

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #120 on: February 27, 2011, 05:09:48 PM »
To the point-
Yes.
No.
No.
Choose one that enhances your gaming experience.
Consult your own gaming group. Considering what a broad spectrum of groups play, it's absolutely worthless to try and crackdown on what is "over the edge" beyond the spectrum of your own personal group(s).
Life gives you lemons? Then you better fucking learn Citromancy.

lans

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #121 on: February 27, 2011, 05:51:07 PM »
I think he means Sauron, who has all the War Hulk abilities (minus the penalties) plus the Knockback feat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm3BmjIvUtk (About 2:30)
Unless he's going through hobbits, I would say he's large.
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Amadi

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #122 on: February 27, 2011, 07:01:49 PM »

Then elucidate me, since when is "being very stealthy" or "being very tough" a class?

In case you didn't notice we all admited long ago that the monk and fighter aren't very valid.

However Jaronk presented viable buildss for "stealthy character", and I for "big dumb warriors", wich are concepts and not classes, and you discard them because they use exotic races.

Most of us don't live in a fantasy world where we can pull out whatever we want out of any rulebook ever without pissing off the DM. First of all, not all DMs have all the books, and don't allow sources away from those books. Here, let me quote rules from one campaign where I'm participating/applying for.

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Books allowed will beAllowed Races:
Humans, primarily, but also Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Halflings, and Half-Elves.

Restricted Classes:
Note: For any Sorcerer made I will roll a percentile to determine their chances of going insane and losing control of their power. This flaw in Sorcerors is due to a preexisting condition in the world.

Prohibited Classes43,500 gp

Note, Complete Warrior is out, and it's not by mistake. It was intentional choice by the DM. Options aside from these books might be, or might be not used by the DM, but are not allowed to the players. So, tell me, now, is Scout a viable choice? We'll be fighting a lot of Illithids, apparently, so mindsight is probably on the table. Likewise, notice that SRD material is not allowed, which means no flaws, racial variants, paragons, etc.

Now, this is a real-world scenario of a game. Not some fantasized situation where you can do anything you want and the DM won't give a fuck. And you know, most of the games I usually participate in are like this.

Now, give me the following examples. They need to be..
A: IP-proofed so that they can survive most level-appropriate encounters from most sourcebooks without outside help.
B: Effective in their role. This means that a fighter needs to deal a lot of damage, and that a scout needs to be able to spot without being spotted. Even the scout needs to have at least some presence in a combat.

A: A scout.
B: An unarmed fighter.
C: A two-weapon fighter.
D: Skillmonkey.

The stats were rolled. I took actual rolled stats from one player.

d6 Results: 6, 4, 6 (Total = 16)
d6 Results: 5, 2, 3 (Total = 10)
d6 Results: 5, 5, 2 (Total = 12)
d6 Results: 3, 6, 6 (Total = 15)
d6 Results: 4, 2, 6 (Total = 12)
d6 Results: 4, 4, 4 (Total = 12)

Clearly, if those requirements cannot be filled, the concept is not a viable choice. I think that we can just throw the first two right out of the basket, third one is probably out too.. Or then they will be filled with some weird cleric hybrids who are really fullcasters and don't even care about their combat viability in these roles.

JaronK

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #123 on: February 27, 2011, 07:25:28 PM »
@ Jaronk...
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The overall archetype works, it's just really helped by taking the optimal race for it... but that shouldn't be unexpected
Liar. You do that specifically when the archtype DOESN'T work.
I'm not going to get into a long drawn out argument with you because your methodology of posting is argument through attrition and you Will post more than me,  and having more words on the screen makes it appear that you have more to say, but its the same old thing with you.

Um, what?  I posted the Necrpolitan thing as an example of a really solid way to boost an archetype.  I've absolutely played scouts that didn't use Necropolitan before... in fact the majority of scouts I've played (and seen played) didn't use it (mostly because Libris Mortis wasn't available anyway, which made it irrelevant).  

If you're going to call me a liar, then the burden is on you to prove that the entire archetype doesn't work.  Considering how many people in this very forum have successfully made it work, the best you're going to do is explain why you're incapable of pulling it off in your own campaigns.  I can't be the only person who's successfully played a scout type character using a Halfling Rogue.  Or, heck, even a Halfling Spellthief.

Heck, if you go back to the very conversation in question, you'll note I never said Necropolitan is critical... only that it's one of the best options.  If I say Dragonborn Water Orcs are great for making chargers, do you believe that means only Dragonborns can be chargers (or that only Water Orcs can, or that only the combination can) and that I must be lying if I say that even a Human can be a solid charger?

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However...
  
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When I show how illusionists work, I often use race (Gnome or Whispergnome for access to Shadowcraft Mage).  That's just how it's supposed to be done
Is just bullshit.
1. No one needs to see a whispergnome, to illustrate how illusion works. This is Very telling thing. You can make the argument that "Illusion" works overall and can demonstrate it with any race. This does not apply to steath

First of all, I said "Gnome or Whispergnome for access to Shadowcraft Mage."  How in your head did that turn into claiming that someone needs to see a Whispergnome to illustrate how illusion works?  I was pointing out that one of the major ways of being an illusionist was to use the Shadowcraft Mage class, which requires being a gnome.  And what does this have to do with stealth?  The point here is that some races or race/class combos are really useful for certain archetypes.  The master of illusions concept is really well done by Shadowcraft Mages, because only they can put out quite so much power from illusions.  Do you deny this?

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2. Necropolitain: Goes into the same pile of bullshit that makes the archivist one of the most powerful classes in all of D&D... This will never happen, in an actuall game of D&D, but theoretically an archivist can literally know All the spells. This is more up to the whim of the DM than other things because it has to be a game in which he actually does this.

...I've played Archivists that got lots of super powered spells (not all, but plenty of powerful ones... you only need a few of the strong ones per level after all).  Just because you haven't doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  And I've played Necropolitans (not all the time, but I have).  Heck, there's two Necropolitans in the D&D group I'm currently in... mostly because I'm playing a Dread Necromancer.  As such, the Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade character and the Cleric are both Necropolitans now.  They like what Undead Mastery does for them.  News flash: your campaign is not the same as everyone else's campaign.  And if you don't play super high powered games where stuff like lots of Archivist spells being allowed is normal, why are you claiming the Scout archetype can't ever function without Necropolitans?  That's only for super high powered games anyway.

And yes, it has to be in a game where the DM allows it.  Obviously.  But since it doesn't even matter for the discussion we were having if it's not allowed (you don't need to be non-living to avoid Lifesense if the book isn't even being used), who cares?

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Likewise to become a necropolitan requires.
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Ritual of Crucimigration
Any living humanoid or monstrous humanoid can petition for consideration to undergo the Ritual of Crucimigration, which (if successful) enables the creature to become a necropolitan. The petition for consideration requires a fee of 3,000 gp and a written plea.

What the fuck... the argument that "Well the libris mortis is in play..." has some traction I admit but actually getting someone to allow you to become a necropolitan is still in errs.

Look, if your DM is the kind who would screw you by using a feat like Lifesense against you but giving you no way of countering it, then I guess you're going to have to suck it up and deal with it.  But now you're arguing that DMs can screw you... congratulations, welcome to the club of people who knew that one a long time ago.  A DM who uses Lifesense against you enough for it to be an issue but doesn't let you be a Necropolitan to counter it and take advantage of it yourself (or let your psi-crystal take Lifesense, as the feat only requires Con -, or have some other counter) does indeed make the scouting archetype not work... but only because he's going out of his way to do that.  Well, I can make a dead magic world where everything is an antimagic field too, but that doesn't mean casters in general aren't a functional archetype... it just means I screwed them in my games.

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 Further Whispergnome is one of the more powerful of the non-level adjusted races anyway... but I'm not going to drag this thread down by tussling about the specifics of a locked thread. Its just a red herring for the overall purpose of the this thread.
 So I hearby retract all mention of your Whispergnome. I dont' want this to become another Jaronk Desmondu warbat thread. Moving on.

Ah yes, the "make a dumb statement, then claim you don't want to argue so that it will stand uncountered" maneuver.   Classy.

Seriously, Whispergnomes are just a good stealth race.  But most players know that magic is where serious power stuff is, not stealth.  Heck, you yourself are arguing that scouting doesn't even work as an archetype, so you yourself know magic is stronger.  Thus, stronger races are stuff like dwarves (access to Runesmith), Gnomes (Access to Shadowcraft Mage with a boost to their illusion spells, which ends up mattering a LOT more), Humans (bonus feats help casters!), and basically anyone who's good at being a mage for one reason or another.  Those will be stronger... and I'm just talking about the core races.  Heck, since when has the ability to beat hide checks (which Halflings can do already) been better than the ability to even hit things hard?  Why aren't Orcs or Water Orcs the top contenders... they get +4 Str and access to Headlong Rush!  Even Half Orcs get Headlong Rush.

And what's the usual reason for Whispergnomes being called overpowered?  A boost to hide and move silently (compared to a halfling they have, what, +2 Move Silently and +4 Hide?  Ooh, scary) and a con boost... but you were objecting to Necropolitan Whispergnomes, who don't even get the Con boost.  Yeah, that makes lots of sense.  Quick, compare the stat lines of a Necropolitan Halfling to a Necropolitan Whispergnome.  Which is better?  -2 Str, +2 Dex, or -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Cha?  

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3. ...and MOST importantly, I'm coming into the belief that as an optimizer it is best to make creations using the simplest tools possible. Not to say that one shouldn't create impressive theoretical builds of what can be done. Even what can be done within certain parameters...  However the simplest most elegant tools are the ones most likely to get into a game, that ISN'T hosted on brilliant gameoligists.

Which is why I gave advice for all sorts of campaigns.  If you look at where this nonsense started, you'll see we were talking about a very specific high powered campaign, one where everybody's a caster, enemies have Mindsight, the DM likes to set up regular ambushes, and one of the PCs already had Lifesense and was a Necropolitan!  In other words, this was a game where being a Necropolitan with Lifesense was already a given option for the party!  In such a game, a Necropolitan Whispergnome is a completely reasonable suggestion.  You even had a nice Necropolitan Cleric with Lifesense in the party to do the ritual for you.

When talking about the general case, I was also giving suggestions like Human, Halfling, and Strongheart Halfling.  You just happened to fixate on one thing out of context and go from there.

A good optimizer uses the tools available to make a build that fits the game (note: fits, not breaks!).  Sometimes, that's just the SRD, or just core.  Sometimes, that's everything but core.  Sometimes, it's all printed WotC material, sometimes it's all material in a hardbound book.  Sometimes it's a huge collection of house rules.  Sometimes the end goal is something that basically can't die.  Sometimes it's a character that can handle even CR challenges straight out of the Monster Manual with the backup of three party mates.  Sometimes it's a character meant to deal with tailor made enemies that the DM throws at you to specifically challenge the character you made.  Whatever it is, you fit the situation.  

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To an extent, yes.  But if you wanted to do the whole "smash five guys at once with huge sweeps of your weapon" sort of brute, you need to be large since Warhulk is by far the best way to do that.
Is it? Is it really?
Shocktroopers with great cleave would like a word with you.
It's in a more common book, it has less pre-req's, it lets you do basically exactly whats described.
 Futher the knight protector and frenzied berserker get supreme cleave as class abilites. Now you need to damage people to do it but it doesn't require you to be a monster, and honestly being hulking doens't require you be a monster. Plenty of hulking strong dudes walking the earth we live on right this second.
 Such suggestions pointedly blur the line where people outside of seasoned optimizers start confusing things like optimizer and munchkin... and its lazy too.

I wasn't going for "Kill 5 guys at once" as that's likely to be overpowered.  I was going for "hit 5 guys at once" like in Lord of the Rings (the Movie, and yeah I meant Sauron) during that battle sequence where we see the big bad knocking a bunch of guys away with one sweep of his weapon.  All the options you list here require a guy to be so overpowered for the campaign that he's one hit killing at least 4 enemies with a single swing... that's less likely to be appropriate than a War Hulk who simply hits everyone in reach with every hit, but doesn't necessarily slaughter whole encounters in one hit.  Don't accuse me of being a munchkin while you suggest Shocktrooper/Great Cleave chargers that destroy encounters instantly.  And while Warmind can do it, it's Psionic, which interestingly enough I see banned a LOT more than Permanent Enlarge Person.  Plus, once you have psychic powers you're not really the hulking brute smashy smashy hulk character anymore.

And yeah, Diplomacy is only mind effecting in the epic usage.  You can absolutely use it to make an intelligent creature you can communicate with (even if it's undead, or Mind Blanked, or whatever) into your friend.  So you can totally use it to do the Necropolitan ritual... especially if there's a Necropolitan already in your group, which was the case for the specific scenario we were talking about.

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So am I to take it then that all of you feel that the exception shuold prove the rule? I've clearly stated that I don't have a problem with people optimizing race except when used as a determinate of when a class/tactic is valid for discussion. Are you saying then that you recognize the outliers as the rule?
Are we to believe then that monk is valid because we can find a race that makes monks competative? Cause my argument that view is flawed...

Class is different than tactic.  Saying "the Monk class is viable because I can be a Feral Half Minotaur Water Orc Monk 1" is flawed, because it's the race the makes you viable, NOT the class... you haven't said anything about the class, and quite frankly a Feral Half Minotaur Water Orc Commoner 1 is liable to be viable.  

But tactic?  If I use a class to prove a tactic works, that does prove the tactic works.  If I use items to prove a tactic works, it works.  If I use feats to prove a tactic works, it works.  If I use race?  Same thing.  For example, I can say that wielding a shield in combat is a viable tactic, because the Shield Charge and Shield Slam feats when combined with Improved Trip let you double hit, trip, and daze anyone at the end of a charge.  Likewise I could say that charging as a tactic works, because with Shock Trooper and either Leap Attack or Spirited Charge/Riding Boots means my damage is so high I can one hit kill enemies.  And I can say that scouting works because Darkstalker lets you hide from almost everything, Mindsight lets you see almost everything, and Lifesense helps even more.  That's using feats to show a tactic works.

But I can also use other things besides feats to show a tactic works.  How about spells?  I can show that blasting works (at least at level 8+) by showing how the Wings of Flurry spell blows the snot out of most enemies, especially when combined with a Dragonblooded race (Kobolds!) and a solid Charisma score.  I can show that painting a target for archers works using Glitterdust.  I can show that making a horde of big minion bruisers works via Animate Dead.

And classes?  Yup, that too.  I can show that shield thing again by combining Shield Charge and Shield Slam with the Crusader's Shield Block and Shield Counter.  I can show that blasting works with a Sorcerer, or even with a Beguiler/Shadowcraft Mage.  I can show that charging works with a nice Lion Totem Barbarian or a Frenzied Berserker.  I can show that scouting works with a Factotum or Beguiler or Rogue.

And races?  Yes, we can show that tactics work with races.  I can show how to scout with a Halfling or a Necropolitan Whispergnome.  I can show how to smash enemies with an Orc or a Half Minotaur Water Orc.  I can show how to dominate the world with nothing but illusions using a Gnome, or how to create serious armies of the dead with a Dwarf (thanks, Runesmith, for being the greatest unknown Necromancer class ever and making Dwawrves the best Necromancers!) or a Spellstitched Undead (for the same reason).

I really don't see why you think races somehow can't be used to show how tactics are viable.  I mean, usually it's a combination of race, class and feats that does it.  For example, with the scouting thing I was suggesting a Necropolitan Whispergnome Factotum/Mindbender/Swordsage with Lifesense, Mindsight, and Darkstalker.  Why?  Because the game was extremely high powered and full of ambushes, and enemies had crazy detection feats too (plus everything was a caster and there was already a Necropolitan in the party).  This is not to say that it's impossible to use scouting as a tactic without that combination.  I've absolutely scouting with a Halfling Rogue before, and I can't be the only one to have done it (I didn't have any of those feats either, but I have to say lacking Darkstalker did REALLY suck).  It's just one example of a build that can use the tactic... and builds do tend to include race, even if a few races would work.

JaronK

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #124 on: February 27, 2011, 07:27:54 PM »
Note, Complete Warrior is out, and it's not by mistake. It was intentional choice by the DM. Options aside from these books might be, or might be not used by the DM, but are not allowed to the players. So, tell me, now, is Scout a viable choice? We'll be fighting a lot of Illithids, apparently, so mindsight is probably on the table. Likewise, notice that SRD material is not allowed, which means no flaws, racial variants, paragons, etc.

Now, this is a real-world scenario of a game. Not some fantasized situation where you can do anything you want and the DM won't give a fuck. And you know, most of the games I usually participate in are like this.

Then kinda sucks to be you, because if the DM restricts your book choice, but allows himself to use whatever he wants (Mindsight is from Lords of Madness, wich is not in the allowed books), then it's not that balanced.

You're commiting Oberron's fallacy here. Houserules have no place whatsoever in a balance/rules discussion. I'm sorry you have such restrictive DMs, but  randomly screwing with the players by not allowing them to use the books he himself is using, then yes concepts will be screwed over.

For example, your DM says sorcerors will randomly go mad. So in your campaigns no player will want to be a sorceror (and hope to last long at least). This doesn't mean sorcerors aren't viable for other players.

And yes, I allow pretty much every book in my games. DMing two of them right now online. I have drows, warforged, succubus, dragons to supervise now, and I've seen kobolds, ogres, lychantropes and a lot of other exotic stuff during my D&D career.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #125 on: February 27, 2011, 07:28:48 PM »
We'll be fighting a lot of Illithids, apparently, so mindsight is probably on the table. Likewise, notice that SRD material is not allowed, which means no flaws, racial variants, paragons, etc.
I don't see Lords of Madness on the books list, so it looks like mindsight is out.

EDIT:Ninjaed
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JaronK

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #126 on: February 27, 2011, 07:39:02 PM »
Most of us don't live in a fantasy world where we can pull out whatever we want out of any rulebook ever without pissing off the DM. First of all, not all DMs have all the books, and don't allow sources away from those books. Here, let me quote rules from one campaign where I'm participating/applying for.

Different campaigns have different books allowed.  The games I've played lately have allowed all WotC printed books, so while that may be a fantasy to you it's a reality for at least some.  But I've also played games that allow only certain books, lord knows... heck, we started out core only.

So let's see, you want a scout from those books and those rules?

Halfling Beguiler. Gnome Beguiler would be good too... take your pick.  Spend your items well... MIC has some AMAZING ones to help (there's a nice cheap one that gives track, which could help, for example).  You said Mindsight is allowed, so take a one level dip into Mindbender and grab that... and Darkstalker's from the same book, so if that's available take it.  For the unarmed fighter, you're asking for IP proofing which means you want a super high powered game where you're trying to be immune to the DM (I hate that philosophy), so I guess you're stuck with Human Monk 1/Druid X.  Pure Monk would obviously be more appropriate but you can't play in god mode as a Monk.  The TWF guy is going to be impossible to do if you want god mode, if you don't any Rogue will get it done (possibly with some Swashbuckler and the usual feat for those two?).  And we've already got two skillmonkeys.

But seriously, your primary issue here is you want to play in god mode.  Are you sure your DM is going to be throwing challenges out that make that necessary?  You don't need to DM proof yourself.  Frankly, the rules your DM gives make it seem like he wants a low magic game where he's not throwing everything at you at full power, so from those rules it seems to me that Beguiler - Monk - Rogue/Swashbuckler - Rogue would actually be pretty reasonable (no healing that way, though).  Might want to multiclass that Monk a bit to keep him up with the party.  But remember, a good optimizer optimizes to fit the game... not break it.  Sure, you could do a party of Cleric (Chain of Eyes to scout!), Monk 1/Druid X (unarmed!), Monk 1/Druid X (hey, he's got two weapons), Beguiler... but I think that's overkill for this scenario.  Oh, and they could easily all be human.

JaronK

bearsarebrown

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #127 on: February 27, 2011, 07:43:33 PM »
shit
We can't objectively discuss optimization to your house rules. Or any one person's house rules and terrible ban list. There is an assumption here that most, if not all, official material is allowed unless otherwise noted. Because what is the other option?

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #128 on: February 27, 2011, 08:33:44 PM »
So I was reminded of a time in which I had a cohort Warforged. He did decent enough damage for the level, about 200 or so a round at 15. But honestly, his main contribution wasn't that. It was debuffing. Specifically, 2 negative levels per hit. See, he had Life Drinker on his weapon for 38k. 2 negative levels to the target, and 1 to you, every hit. Warforged are immune to energy drain, and unlike other constructs, or lol Undead, they actually do have decent HP and Fort. So his main contribution wasn't high HP, or saves, or the ok damage, or whatever. It was lowering enemy saves since that's the main part of negative levels.

And since Jaron insisted on bringing up the fail topic again...

There were two games being referenced in that example. In the first, there were no Necropolitians, and being one would be out of place, on top of all the other reasons why scouts fail. In the other, there was indeed a Necropolitian Cleric - but this in no way explains why everyone should take -20% XP and loot for a walking, soon to be inanimate corpse whose main contribution (namely, Lifesight) is already being done by a real character! Not to mention that in that specific example, the gimp would have spotted the Ice Devil... at about a hundred feet, due to this neat thing called visibility and this other neat thing called opaqueness, just like the Cleric, except he's alone and a gimp, so he gets slaughtered.

In short, Jaron is still a CAP victim, and is still trying to claim he is not. Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #129 on: February 27, 2011, 08:41:00 PM »
So I was reminded of a time in which I had a cohort Warforged. He did decent enough damage for the level, about 200 or so a round at 15. But honestly, his main contribution wasn't that. It was debuffing. Specifically, 2 negative levels per hit. See, he had Life Drinker on his weapon for 38k. 2 negative levels to the target, and 1 to you, every hit. Warforged are immune to energy drain, and unlike other constructs, or lol Undead, they actually do have decent HP and Fort. So his main contribution wasn't high HP, or saves, or the ok damage, or whatever. It was lowering enemy saves since that's the main part of negative levels.

And since Jaron insisted on bringing up the fail topic again...

There were two games being referenced in that example. In the first, there were no Necropolitians, and being one would be out of place, on top of all the other reasons why scouts fail. In the other, there was indeed a Necropolitian Cleric - but this in no way explains why everyone should take -20% XP and loot for a walking, soon to be inanimate corpse whose main contribution (namely, Lifesight) is already being done by a real character! Not to mention that in that specific example, the gimp would have spotted the Ice Devil... at about a hundred feet, due to this neat thing called visibility and this other neat thing called opaqueness, just like the Cleric, except he's alone and a gimp, so he gets slaughtered.

In short, Jaron is still a CAP victim, and is still trying to claim he is not. Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

...so, picking out the relevant bits, you are in favor of race enabling tricks, like your warforged cohort?

skydragonknight

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #130 on: February 27, 2011, 09:32:49 PM »
Random nitpick:

"Burden of Proof" is a lie. Anyone who wants you to argue your side but doesn't want to argue theirs is an asshat. If a statement is "established" then it should be easy and trivial to make an argument for it. So either support your statements or GTFO.

/random nitpick

Edit: Though in this case, I think neither side is being entirely honest. And concise arguments instead of walls of text are also appreciated.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 10:40:36 PM by skydragonknight »
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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #131 on: February 27, 2011, 10:31:28 PM »
@Jaronk: Giant wall of text.
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I'm not going to get into a long drawn out argument with you because your methodology of posting is argument through attrition and you Will post more than me,  and having more words on the screen makes it appear that you have more to say, but its the same old thing with you....

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but I'm not going to drag this thread down by tussling about the specifics of a locked thread. Its just a red herring for the overall purpose of the this thread.
 So I hearby retract all mention of your Whispergnome. I dont' want this to become another Jaronk Desmondu warbat thread. Moving on.

Yeah... I'm personally done discussing it with you, personally, jaronk. Its not a tangent worth talking about here.

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There is an assumption here that most, if not all, official material is allowed unless otherwise noted. Because what is the other option?
There is no assumption....
  Getting the parameters first is the other option.
 Specifically, someone says build me an X, then its an issue because, just throwing out builds is futile till we get said parameters. You just start throwing out builds and its a waste of everyones time, till you know whats allowed.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #132 on: February 27, 2011, 10:38:03 PM »
shit
We can't objectively discuss optimization to your house rules. Or any one person's house rules and terrible ban list. There is an assumption here that most, if not all, official material is allowed unless otherwise noted. Because what is the other option?

That people asking for help specify what books are allowed and the people helping them don't suggest builds that have key components outside those sourcebooks?  :banghead
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veekie

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #133 on: February 27, 2011, 10:40:01 PM »
Quote
There is no assumption....
  Getting the parameters first is the other option.
 Specifically, someone says build me an X, then its an issue because, just throwing out builds is futile till we get said parameters. You just start throwing out builds and its a waste of everyones time, till you know whats allowed.
Amen, parameters are necessary really, especially when some groups throw homebrew, third party or Dragon(its not that common to have access) into the mix or have arbitrary GM preferences.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #134 on: February 27, 2011, 10:45:26 PM »
shit
We can't objectively discuss optimization to your house rules. Or any one person's house rules and terrible ban list. There is an assumption here that most, if not all, official material is allowed unless otherwise noted. Because what is the other option?

That people asking for help specify what books are allowed and the people helping them don't suggest builds that have key components outside those sourcebooks?  :banghead
I ought t was implied that is only the assumption if an allowed list is not given.

skydragonknight

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #135 on: February 27, 2011, 10:52:54 PM »
It used to be good etiquette on 339 to ask the OPer what sourcebooks and housebooks are in play. Note that offering a relatively simple build in the same post until more info is available is perfectly acceptable.

Not sure how much of that philosophy has carried over to here, as I spend more time on build theory topics than please help! topics nowadays.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

veekie

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #136 on: February 27, 2011, 11:02:12 PM »
Well, my personal default assumptions are No Templates, No LA, Core + SC + Completes, since most characters can be functional, if not excellent within that.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Bastian

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #137 on: February 27, 2011, 11:09:17 PM »
It used to be good etiquette on 339 to ask the OPer what sourcebooks and housebooks are in play. Note that offering a relatively simple build in the same post until more info is available is perfectly acceptable.

Not sure how much of that philosophy has carried over to here, as I spend more time on build theory topics than please help! topics nowadays.
That is still true. This however is not a build topic, it is a lets discuss one entire aspect of dnd topic and you can't very well discuss the entirety of dnd with houserules unless what you really wish to discuss is the house rules.

veekie

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #138 on: February 27, 2011, 11:15:59 PM »
It does relate though, since some house rules are more common than others and should be taken into account, if to a lesser degree than the rules as written.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #139 on: February 27, 2011, 11:17:37 PM »
Well, we probably are ignoring multiclassing xp penalties.
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