@ Jaronk...
The overall archetype works, it's just really helped by taking the optimal race for it... but that shouldn't be unexpected
Liar. You do that specifically when the archtype DOESN'T work.
I'm not going to get into a long drawn out argument with you because your methodology of posting is argument through attrition and you Will post more than me, and having more words on the screen makes it appear that you have more to say, but its the same old thing with you.
Um, what? I posted the Necrpolitan thing as an example of a really solid way to boost an archetype. I've absolutely played scouts that didn't use Necropolitan before... in fact the majority of scouts I've played (and seen played) didn't use it (mostly because Libris Mortis wasn't available anyway, which made it irrelevant).
If you're going to call me a liar, then the burden is on you to prove that the entire archetype doesn't work. Considering how many people in this very forum have successfully made it work, the best you're going to do is explain why you're incapable of pulling it off in your own campaigns. I can't be the only person who's successfully played a scout type character using a Halfling Rogue. Or, heck, even a Halfling Spellthief.
Heck, if you go back to the very conversation in question, you'll note I never said Necropolitan is critical... only that it's one of the best options. If I say Dragonborn Water Orcs are great for making chargers, do you believe that means only Dragonborns can be chargers (or that only Water Orcs can, or that only the combination can) and that I must be lying if I say that even a Human can be a solid charger?
However...
When I show how illusionists work, I often use race (Gnome or Whispergnome for access to Shadowcraft Mage). That's just how it's supposed to be done
Is just bullshit.
1. No one needs to see a whispergnome, to illustrate how illusion works. This is Very telling thing. You can make the argument that "Illusion" works overall and can demonstrate it with any race. This does not apply to steath
First of all, I said "Gnome or Whispergnome for access to Shadowcraft Mage." How in your head did that turn into claiming that someone needs to see a Whispergnome to illustrate how illusion works? I was pointing out that one of the major ways of being an illusionist was to use the Shadowcraft Mage class, which requires being a gnome. And what does this have to do with stealth? The point here is that some races or race/class combos are really useful for certain archetypes. The master of illusions concept is really well done by Shadowcraft Mages, because only they can put out quite so much power from illusions. Do you deny this?
2. Necropolitain: Goes into the same pile of bullshit that makes the archivist one of the most powerful classes in all of D&D... This will never happen, in an actuall game of D&D, but theoretically an archivist can literally know All the spells. This is more up to the whim of the DM than other things because it has to be a game in which he actually does this.
...I've played Archivists that got lots of super powered spells (not all, but plenty of powerful ones... you only need a few of the strong ones per level after all). Just because you haven't doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And I've played Necropolitans (not all the time, but I have). Heck, there's two Necropolitans in the D&D group I'm currently in... mostly because I'm playing a Dread Necromancer. As such, the Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade character and the Cleric are both Necropolitans now. They like what Undead Mastery does for them. News flash: your campaign is not the same as everyone else's campaign. And if you don't play super high powered games where stuff like lots of Archivist spells being allowed is normal, why are you claiming the Scout archetype can't ever function without Necropolitans? That's only for super high powered games anyway.
And yes, it has to be in a game where the DM allows it. Obviously. But since it doesn't even matter for the discussion we were having if it's not allowed (you don't need to be non-living to avoid Lifesense if the book isn't even being used), who cares?
Likewise to become a necropolitan requires.
Ritual of Crucimigration
Any living humanoid or monstrous humanoid can petition for consideration to undergo the Ritual of Crucimigration, which (if successful) enables the creature to become a necropolitan. The petition for consideration requires a fee of 3,000 gp and a written plea.
What the fuck... the argument that "Well the libris mortis is in play..." has some traction I admit but actually getting someone to allow you to become a necropolitan is still in errs.
Look, if your DM is the kind who would screw you by using a feat like Lifesense against you but giving you no way of countering it, then I guess you're going to have to suck it up and deal with it. But now you're arguing that DMs can screw you... congratulations, welcome to the club of people who knew that one a long time ago. A DM who uses Lifesense against you enough for it to be an issue but doesn't let you be a Necropolitan to counter it and take advantage of it yourself (or let your psi-crystal take Lifesense, as the feat only requires Con -, or have some other counter) does indeed make the scouting archetype not work... but only because he's going out of his way to do that. Well, I can make a dead magic world where everything is an antimagic field too, but that doesn't mean casters in general aren't a functional archetype... it just means I screwed them in my games.
Further Whispergnome is one of the more powerful of the non-level adjusted races anyway... but I'm not going to drag this thread down by tussling about the specifics of a locked thread. Its just a red herring for the overall purpose of the this thread.
So I hearby retract all mention of your Whispergnome. I dont' want this to become another Jaronk Desmondu warbat thread. Moving on.
Ah yes, the "make a dumb statement, then claim you don't want to argue so that it will stand uncountered" maneuver. Classy.
Seriously, Whispergnomes are just a good stealth race. But most players know that magic is where serious power stuff is, not stealth. Heck, you yourself are arguing that scouting doesn't even work as an archetype, so you yourself know magic is stronger. Thus, stronger races are stuff like dwarves (access to Runesmith), Gnomes (Access to Shadowcraft Mage with a boost to their illusion spells, which ends up mattering a LOT more), Humans (bonus feats help casters!), and basically anyone who's good at being a mage for one reason or another. Those will be stronger... and I'm just talking about the core races. Heck, since when has the ability to beat hide checks (which Halflings can do already) been better than the ability to even hit things hard? Why aren't Orcs or Water Orcs the top contenders... they get +4 Str and access to Headlong Rush! Even Half Orcs get Headlong Rush.
And what's the usual reason for Whispergnomes being called overpowered? A boost to hide and move silently (compared to a halfling they have, what, +2 Move Silently and +4 Hide? Ooh, scary) and a con boost... but you were objecting to Necropolitan Whispergnomes, who don't even get the Con boost. Yeah, that makes lots of sense. Quick, compare the stat lines of a Necropolitan Halfling to a Necropolitan Whispergnome. Which is better? -2 Str, +2 Dex, or -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Cha?
3. ...and MOST importantly, I'm coming into the belief that as an optimizer it is best to make creations using the simplest tools possible. Not to say that one shouldn't create impressive theoretical builds of what can be done. Even what can be done within certain parameters... However the simplest most elegant tools are the ones most likely to get into a game, that ISN'T hosted on brilliant gameoligists.
Which is why I gave advice for all sorts of campaigns. If you look at where this nonsense started, you'll see we were talking about a very specific high powered campaign, one where everybody's a caster, enemies have Mindsight, the DM likes to set up regular ambushes, and one of the PCs
already had Lifesense and was a Necropolitan! In other words,
this was a game where being a Necropolitan with Lifesense was already a given option for the party! In such a game, a Necropolitan Whispergnome is a completely reasonable suggestion. You even had a nice Necropolitan Cleric with Lifesense in the party to do the ritual for you.
When talking about the general case, I was also giving suggestions like Human, Halfling, and Strongheart Halfling. You just happened to fixate on one thing out of context and go from there.
A good optimizer uses the tools available to make a build that fits the game (note: fits, not breaks!). Sometimes, that's just the SRD, or just core. Sometimes, that's everything but core. Sometimes, it's all printed WotC material, sometimes it's all material in a hardbound book. Sometimes it's a huge collection of house rules. Sometimes the end goal is something that basically can't die. Sometimes it's a character that can handle even CR challenges straight out of the Monster Manual with the backup of three party mates. Sometimes it's a character meant to deal with tailor made enemies that the DM throws at you to specifically challenge the character you made. Whatever it is, you fit the situation.
To an extent, yes. But if you wanted to do the whole "smash five guys at once with huge sweeps of your weapon" sort of brute, you need to be large since Warhulk is by far the best way to do that.
Is it? Is it really?
Shocktroopers with great cleave would like a word with you.
It's in a more common book, it has less pre-req's, it lets you do basically exactly whats described.
Futher the knight protector and frenzied berserker get supreme cleave as class abilites. Now you need to damage people to do it but it doesn't require you to be a monster, and honestly being hulking doens't require you be a monster. Plenty of hulking strong dudes walking the earth we live on right this second.
Such suggestions pointedly blur the line where people outside of seasoned optimizers start confusing things like optimizer and munchkin... and its lazy too.
I wasn't going for "Kill 5 guys at once" as that's likely to be overpowered. I was going for "hit 5 guys at once" like in Lord of the Rings (the Movie, and yeah I meant Sauron) during that battle sequence where we see the big bad knocking a bunch of guys away with one sweep of his weapon. All the options you list here require a guy to be so overpowered for the campaign that he's one hit killing at least 4 enemies with a single swing... that's less likely to be appropriate than a War Hulk who simply hits everyone in reach with every hit, but doesn't necessarily slaughter whole encounters in one hit. Don't accuse me of being a munchkin while you suggest Shocktrooper/Great Cleave chargers that destroy encounters instantly. And while Warmind can do it, it's Psionic, which interestingly enough I see banned a LOT more than Permanent Enlarge Person. Plus, once you have psychic powers you're not really the hulking brute smashy smashy hulk character anymore.
And yeah, Diplomacy is only mind effecting in the epic usage. You can absolutely use it to make an intelligent creature you can communicate with (even if it's undead, or Mind Blanked, or whatever) into your friend. So you can totally use it to do the Necropolitan ritual... especially if there's a Necropolitan already in your group, which was the case for the specific scenario we were talking about.
So am I to take it then that all of you feel that the exception shuold prove the rule? I've clearly stated that I don't have a problem with people optimizing race except when used as a determinate of when a class/tactic is valid for discussion. Are you saying then that you recognize the outliers as the rule?
Are we to believe then that monk is valid because we can find a race that makes monks competative? Cause my argument that view is flawed...
Class is different than tactic. Saying "the Monk class is viable because I can be a Feral Half Minotaur Water Orc Monk 1" is flawed, because it's the race the makes you viable, NOT the class... you haven't said anything about the class, and quite frankly a Feral Half Minotaur Water Orc Commoner 1 is liable to be viable.
But tactic? If I use a class to prove a tactic works, that does prove the tactic works. If I use items to prove a tactic works, it works. If I use feats to prove a tactic works, it works. If I use race? Same thing. For example, I can say that wielding a shield in combat is a viable tactic, because the Shield Charge and Shield Slam feats when combined with Improved Trip let you double hit, trip, and daze anyone at the end of a charge. Likewise I could say that charging as a tactic works, because with Shock Trooper and either Leap Attack or Spirited Charge/Riding Boots means my damage is so high I can one hit kill enemies. And I can say that scouting works because Darkstalker lets you hide from almost everything, Mindsight lets you see almost everything, and Lifesense helps even more. That's using feats to show a tactic works.
But I can also use other things besides feats to show a tactic works. How about spells? I can show that blasting works (at least at level 8+) by showing how the Wings of Flurry spell blows the snot out of most enemies, especially when combined with a Dragonblooded race (Kobolds!) and a solid Charisma score. I can show that painting a target for archers works using Glitterdust. I can show that making a horde of big minion bruisers works via Animate Dead.
And classes? Yup, that too. I can show that shield thing again by combining Shield Charge and Shield Slam with the Crusader's Shield Block and Shield Counter. I can show that blasting works with a Sorcerer, or even with a Beguiler/Shadowcraft Mage. I can show that charging works with a nice Lion Totem Barbarian or a Frenzied Berserker. I can show that scouting works with a Factotum or Beguiler or Rogue.
And races? Yes, we can show that tactics work with races. I can show how to scout with a Halfling or a Necropolitan Whispergnome. I can show how to smash enemies with an Orc or a Half Minotaur Water Orc. I can show how to dominate the world with nothing but illusions using a Gnome, or how to create serious armies of the dead with a Dwarf (thanks, Runesmith, for being the greatest unknown Necromancer class ever and making Dwawrves the best Necromancers!) or a Spellstitched Undead (for the same reason).
I really don't see why you think races somehow can't be used to show how tactics are viable. I mean, usually it's a combination of race, class and feats that does it. For example, with the scouting thing I was suggesting a Necropolitan Whispergnome Factotum/Mindbender/Swordsage with Lifesense, Mindsight, and Darkstalker. Why? Because the game was extremely high powered and full of ambushes, and enemies had crazy detection feats too (plus everything was a caster and there was already a Necropolitan in the party). This is not to say that it's impossible to use scouting as a tactic without that combination. I've absolutely scouting with a Halfling Rogue before, and I can't be the only one to have done it (I didn't have any of those feats either, but I have to say lacking Darkstalker did REALLY suck). It's just one example of a build that can use the tactic... and builds do tend to include race, even if a few races would work.
JaronK