Author Topic: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?  (Read 8567 times)

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Brainpiercing

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2011, 11:03:09 AM »
Hmm.... something like:

Gain two "Ki points" every level.

Buy stuff for Ki-points as in:
Bonus feat: 2 points
Special ability: 1-2 points
Unarmed damage increase: 1 point
Flurry attack: 4 points

Well, the thing is: It's too much trouble to grade everything. I'd rather just have a list of abilities that class gets when they are actually useful.

veekie

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2011, 11:10:20 AM »
Naw, less like that and more of:
Sun School Master- spend ki to  release a flare of blinding light that clings to everything(i.e. Glitterdust, Ref save version)
Eagle School Strike - spend ki to raise the critical threat and turn unarmed strikes and monk weapons slashing

You pick some of these and go nuts.
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lans

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2011, 06:10:27 PM »
The disciple of the word in Tome of Magic can punch the magic out of people.

The immediate action move, deflection, spell resistance are awesome too. As well as the swiftly move across a spider web ability.

Imagine-
Fighter hits flying creature with harpoon.
Monk runs up cord and beats the crap out of it
Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar

Brainpiercing

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2011, 10:32:45 PM »
Naw, less like that and more of:
Sun School Master- spend ki to  release a flare of blinding light that clings to everything(i.e. Glitterdust, Ref save version)
Eagle School Strike - spend ki to raise the critical threat and turn unarmed strikes and monk weapons slashing

You pick some of these and go nuts.
But that's half a wizard. I don't want to create another wizard. The goal is to create a competent, versatile numbers fighter without too many weaknesses.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2011, 10:40:28 PM »
Naw, less like that and more of:
Sun School Master- spend ki to  release a flare of blinding light that clings to everything(i.e. Glitterdust, Ref save version)
Eagle School Strike - spend ki to raise the critical threat and turn unarmed strikes and monk weapons slashing

You pick some of these and go nuts.
But that's half a wizard. I don't want to create another wizard. The goal is to create a competent, versatile numbers fighter without too many weaknesses.
You need awesomesauce abilities on a martial character, or the 'competent' part of that statement (as well as 'without too many weaknesses' part) goes flying out the window of a 40 story building with no damage cap and no slow fall.
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veekie

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2011, 10:52:05 PM »
It'd be more like a sorceror or psion, but yeah. The trick is to make them more swift actions or direct attack augmentations where possible.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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Littha

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2011, 12:55:45 PM »
I did a remake of the Sohei, which is really just sort of a Barbarian/Monk/Paladin.
 Best way seems to be giving it level relevant spells as SLA's.


Sohei got:
Level 4: Glitterdust 3/day getting more uses as you gain levels
Level 8: Fly for minutes/day equal to your class level.
Level 10: Dismissal on melee attacks.
Level 13: Contact other Plane 1/day
Level 16: Anti Magic Field for minutes/day/class level. Doesn't affect you.
Level 18: Miracle 4/day. still need to pay XP cost for the larger benefits of the spell.
Level 20: Half Celestial Template and add class level to HD to work out gained SLAs

Sohei also has up to 4th level spells (from a sort of paladinesq spell list) and frenzy which is like rage though.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 01:02:56 PM by Littha »

Brainpiercing

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2011, 07:12:55 AM »
Ummm... so why would I play that and not a Wizard gish?

At least invent some new abilities that are monk flavoured.

Numbers fighting can work. Barbs and Hood are proof of that. Making the enemy dead is good BFC. Admittedly Barbs are the low end of what I'm shooting for, Hood the high end, because a lot of GMs don't like it when their carefully crafted monsters and other bad guys die in one hit. But we don't need to go that far.

So...

Just to look at some numbers, with my progression:

Level 6 Human monk (for example):
10/14/16/10/17(18 with +1 item)/10; 6d8+21HP; AC 17(18) (+2Dex, +3(+4)Wis, +1 bonus, +1Bracers);
Unarmed +8 (+9 with +1Wis item) (1d8+6, magic + lawful (or any)) (1d8+7 with +1 Wis item), Flurry +7/+7 (+8/+8) (1d8+6);

Ok, that is clearly underwhelming, even at that level (when I can make a Str fighter that can hit harder at level 1 - not human, but...).

Stunning Fist DC: 16 (17). That's ok, for once - equivalent to a 2nd level spell.

So, I believe it does after all need full BAB. And it also still needs interesting stuff, which is not a straight copy of a wizard. For example: Increased natural reach. That would be interesting, and could scale with Unarmed Strike damage. And touch attacks. And some sort of skirmish-light.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2011, 12:13:42 PM »
I've updated the first post with stuff.

TeslaWolff

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2011, 11:13:48 PM »
Hey, look, there's a Tier 3 monk! It's called an Unarmed Swordsage!

Agreed. There is a reason monks hide away in their monasteries, they are too ashamed to face the world for deciding to be a monk, the Master Of Not Killing things.
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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2011, 11:36:45 PM »
Nah, it's just a really backwards WotC butchering of hinduism.

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veekie

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2011, 12:59:05 AM »
Naw, use this one:

Alternately, you're a monk on the cusp of enlightenment. No, seriously. You float along as you meditate, and if someone pisses you off you fire Buddha eye-lasers at them.

I thank you for awesome ecounter idea. Everybody knows the beholder's powers nowadays, but say that they're facing a monk and then watch them go WTF when it starts floating, shooting buddha lazors and punching people at distance. :smirk
This will be a POST transcendence Monk.
Can tank supernovas
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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vilenatas

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2011, 02:07:57 AM »
You might be able to create domain like abilities that scale based upon the school you are coming from.  They would be sort of like SLA's but tailored to the theme.  Have them either be domains that you get as SLA's, or tailor them to the monastic school, but either way they scale at the same rate as spells, so you get 9th level SLA's from your monastic domain (or domains possibly) at the same level as others are getting them along with all of your other class abilities.

Echoes

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2011, 05:46:45 AM »
If a Monk's principle thing is punching people, then that needs to scale in some kind of level-appropriate manner. Right out of the gate, you need to be punching through wood/bricks. By mid-levels (6-10 or so), you need to be punching through fantastic materials like adamantine. Beyond that, "hits things harder" stops being relevant and you need to ascend into crazy-town. Punching the magic out of people, punching people so hard they straight-up die, punching people into next week (or at least next round), punching people out of the universe, etc. are all examples of things high-level punching dudes need to have.

As a kind of quick n' dirty list:
Level 1: Can punch through wood.
Level 3: Can punch through stone.
Level 5: Can punch through ordinary metals (iron/steel/whatever).
Level 7: Can punch through extraordinary metals (adamantine/orichalcum/whatever).
Level 9: Can punch through any matter (obdurium/unbreakium/whatever).
Level 11: Can punch through magic (force effects/dispel magic on hit).
Level 13: Can punch through life (finger of death/slay living).
Level 15: Can punch through space (plane shift).
Level 17: Can punch through time (reverse time stop, only the victim can be affected normally).
Level 19: Can punch through thought (the monk can simultaneously attack any number of targets he chooses within his line of sight. He can affect each target with any one of his punches, and he may use a different punch for each target).

Maybe slap a recharge on the higher-level abilities. Don't make them x/day or even x/encounter, just stick them all on a timer and say "You can only superpunch every 3 rounds" or something. It honestly wouldn't hurt anything if you didn't. They'd require regular melee attacks and you could only do one a round, it's not any worse than a Wizard tossing a SoD every round; in fact, it's actually shittier because he's doing it at range or as a touch attack and can often SoD multiple people.

There, that should basically cover your "being relevant at killing people" abilities. Along the way, you need things like flight though. So add in the following:

Level 2: Can walk on branches/rope.
Level 4: Can walk on water.
Level 6: Can walk on smoke/dust/clouds.
Level 8: Can walk on air.
Level 10: Can walk on will (flight w/ perfect maneuverability).
Level 12: Can walk through space (teleport).
Level 14: Can walk through death (resurrection).
Level 16: Can walk through dimensions (plane shift).
Level 18: Can walk through time (time stop).
Level 20: Can walk through reality (Monk leaves the game world and enters the real. You win D&D).

Tack on some mysticism-related stuff (detect magic, etc) or not as you choose, and give him some defensive skills, or just let him wear light armor. Through in whatever flavor you want, like Timeless Body and shit, but mostly that's just to fill out the class. The core stuff, namely moving and killing, can be pretty well covered by the above lists.

It certainly needs some tweaking and is by no means a full class, but those are the kinds of effects you need to remain relevant, and at roughly those levels.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2011, 09:29:37 AM »
If a Monk's principle thing is punching people, then that needs to scale in some kind of level-appropriate manner. Right out of the gate, you need to be punching through wood/bricks. By mid-levels (6-10 or so), you need to be punching through fantastic materials like adamantine. Beyond that, "hits things harder" stops being relevant and you need to ascend into crazy-town. Punching the magic out of people, punching people so hard they straight-up die, punching people into next week (or at least next round), punching people out of the universe, etc. are all examples of things high-level punching dudes need to have.

As a kind of quick n' dirty list:
Level 1: Can punch through wood.
Level 3: Can punch through stone.
Level 5: Can punch through ordinary metals (iron/steel/whatever).
Well... I think just making Quivering Palm ignore hardness would be enough for the start...
Quote
Level 7: Can punch through extraordinary metals (adamantine/orichalcum/whatever).
Level 9: Can punch through any matter (obdurium/unbreakium/whatever).
Does stuff like that even exist in D&D?
Quote

Level 11: Can punch through magic (force effects/dispel magic on hit).
Level 13: Can punch through life (finger of death/slay living).
Level 15: Can punch through space (plane shift).
Level 17: Can punch through time (reverse time stop, only the victim can be affected normally).
I think something like that shouldn't replicate spell effects, or else we right back at the wizard-copy-problem. They might be Su abilities...
Quote
Level 19: Can punch through thought (the monk can simultaneously attack any number of targets he chooses within his line of sight. He can affect each target with any one of his punches, and he may use a different punch for each target).
Hmm... I don't like that one so much.

Quote
Maybe slap a recharge on the higher-level abilities. Don't make them x/day or even x/encounter, just stick them all on a timer and say "You can only superpunch every 3 rounds" or something. It honestly wouldn't hurt anything if you didn't. They'd require regular melee attacks and you could only do one a round, it's not any worse than a Wizard tossing a SoD every round; in fact, it's actually shittier because he's doing it at range or as a touch attack and can often SoD multiple people.
Recharge rounds are much weaker than per encounter, or even per day, if you have enough uses.

Quote
There, that should basically cover your "being relevant at killing people" abilities. Along the way, you need things like flight though. So add in the following:

Level 2: Can walk on branches/rope.
Level 4: Can walk on water.
Level 6: Can walk on smoke/dust/clouds.
Level 8: Can walk on air.
Level 10: Can walk on will (flight w/ perfect maneuverability).
Level 12: Can walk through space (teleport).
Level 14: Can walk through death (resurrection).
Level 16: Can walk through dimensions (plane shift).
Level 18: Can walk through time (time stop).
Level 20: Can walk through reality (Monk leaves the game world and enters the real. You win D&D).

Tack on some mysticism-related stuff (detect magic, etc) or not as you choose, and give him some defensive skills, or just let him wear light armor. Through in whatever flavor you want, like Timeless Body and shit, but mostly that's just to fill out the class. The core stuff, namely moving and killing, can be pretty well covered by the above lists.

It certainly needs some tweaking and is by no means a full class, but those are the kinds of effects you need to remain relevant, and at roughly those levels.
There are plenty of relevant classes that can do without time stop. But giving him Spell Stoway... now that would be neat. It just doesn't really fit in the progression anymore.

Echoes

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2011, 04:36:00 PM »
If a Monk's principle thing is punching people, then that needs to scale in some kind of level-appropriate manner. Right out of the gate, you need to be punching through wood/bricks. By mid-levels (6-10 or so), you need to be punching through fantastic materials like adamantine. Beyond that, "hits things harder" stops being relevant and you need to ascend into crazy-town. Punching the magic out of people, punching people so hard they straight-up die, punching people into next week (or at least next round), punching people out of the universe, etc. are all examples of things high-level punching dudes need to have.

As a kind of quick n' dirty list:
Level 1: Can punch through wood.
Level 3: Can punch through stone.
Level 5: Can punch through ordinary metals (iron/steel/whatever).
Well... I think just making Quivering Palm ignore hardness would be enough for the start...

Bypassing DR and doing more damage are the basic idea here.

Quote
Quote
Level 7: Can punch through extraordinary metals (adamantine/orichalcum/whatever).
Level 9: Can punch through any matter (obdurium/unbreakium/whatever).


Does stuff like that even exist in D&D?

Same as above, it's more about "You need to do this much damage to ride" than a specific material.

Quote
Quote
Level 11: Can punch through magic (force effects/dispel magic on hit).
Level 13: Can punch through life (finger of death/slay living).
Level 15: Can punch through space (plane shift).
Level 17: Can punch through time (reverse time stop, only the victim can be affected normally).

I think something like that shouldn't replicate spell effects, or else we right back at the wizard-copy-problem. They might be Su abilities...

That's fine. The idea isn't to exactly duplicate spell effects. Those are just examples of the types of effects you need to be generating at roughly those levels in order to stay competitive.

Quote
Quote
Level 19: Can punch through thought (the monk can simultaneously attack any number of targets he chooses within his line of sight. He can affect each target with any one of his punches, and he may use a different punch for each target).

Hmm... I don't like that one so much.

Yeah, that's a throwaway ability. It's level 19, all semblance of balance is gone. Wizards can literally win the battle via wish, and clerics can do the same with miracle. Superpunching everyone in sight isn't even that impressive comparatively - it's essentially a (potentially longer-range) wail of the banshee except that you have to land a melee attack instead of auto-hitting.

Quote
Quote
Maybe slap a recharge on the higher-level abilities. Don't make them x/day or even x/encounter, just stick them all on a timer and say "You can only superpunch every 3 rounds" or something. It honestly wouldn't hurt anything if you didn't. They'd require regular melee attacks and you could only do one a round, it's not any worse than a Wizard tossing a SoD every round; in fact, it's actually shittier because he's doing it at range or as a touch attack and can often SoD multiple people.

Recharge rounds are much weaker than per encounter, or even per day, if you have enough uses.

Hence why I said you could just not put them on a timer. They're all Standard-action abilities that require a melee attack. It wouldn't really upset balance any to just make them at-will.

Quote
Quote
There, that should basically cover your "being relevant at killing people" abilities. Along the way, you need things like flight though. So add in the following:

Level 2: Can walk on branches/rope.
Level 4: Can walk on water.
Level 6: Can walk on smoke/dust/clouds.
Level 8: Can walk on air.
Level 10: Can walk on will (flight w/ perfect maneuverability).
Level 12: Can walk through space (teleport).
Level 14: Can walk through death (resurrection).
Level 16: Can walk through dimensions (plane shift).
Level 18: Can walk through time (time stop).
Level 20: Can walk through reality (Monk leaves the game world and enters the real. You win D&D).

Tack on some mysticism-related stuff (detect magic, etc) or not as you choose, and give him some defensive skills, or just let him wear light armor. Through in whatever flavor you want, like Timeless Body and shit, but mostly that's just to fill out the class. The core stuff, namely moving and killing, can be pretty well covered by the above lists.

It certainly needs some tweaking and is by no means a full class, but those are the kinds of effects you need to remain relevant, and at roughly those levels.

There are plenty of relevant classes that can do without time stop. But giving him Spell Stoway... now that would be neat. It just doesn't really fit in the progression anymore.

Yeah, time stop is a throwaway ability there. Again, the game is broken on first principles at that level, so I just stuck something interesting in. It wouldn't actually help you because you can't do anything inside of one, unlike a Wizard.

Pretty much anything you hand out at 18th+ level is irrelevant for the same reasons - the game is utterly borked at that level. Unless you're planning on rebalancing casters, you can just toss off random flavor abilities and not even care.
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Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

skydragonknight

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2011, 11:37:13 PM »
The easiest Monk fix is to take a Cloistered Cleric and call it a "Monk" since it has virtually the same fluff.
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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2011, 12:22:55 AM »
@Brainpiercing, you need to think bigger. What Echoes is getting at, I believe, is a more fundamental issue then allowing the Monk to bypass hardness. The archetype for "hit things with my bare hands" is weaker then the archetype for a Wizard. Even if the Monk does 3x the damage a Wizard does, it will never keep up because it cannot alter the plot like Planar Bind, Teleport, Gate, Animate Dead, Plane Shift or Charm can. Instead of thinking to yourself, "What do monks do?... punch things... run on clouds... meditate," think "What do super powerful entities do?...distort time... change reality... sway nations on a whim." Now come up with a reason that a Monk can do these things. Punching Time is a good example. Or you can go with the more meditative abilities while obtaining Nirvana over time and eventually becoming outside of Time and the Planes.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2011, 07:31:23 AM »
Oh, of course the archetype is weaker, but then so is ANY archetype that basically doesn't make reality its bitch. But changing it so it does would go beyond the scope of what I want to do here - I don't want to create a Tier 1 monk, nor even a Tier 2. As it is, with my changes, this guy is a nova-king:

For example, at level 10 (to name any), this monk could deal 30d6+3xWis with touch attacks (flurry, main, iterative), 40d6 with haste, in a single round. (Yes, with save half, but vs Will.) Or more if he actually punches. With full BAB and almost complete SAD, the chances that he will hit aren't half bad.

At level 20 that becomes 120 or even 140d6 at range, or 6 disintegrates for 240d6, even without haste. That's almost positively broken, because it doesn't even require a bit of optimisation.

veekie

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2011, 07:43:29 AM »
Being broken number wise still doesn't move it up or down tiers though. Sure you can hit for essentially instakill damage, but T5s can do that.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."