Author Topic: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?  (Read 8586 times)

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veekie

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2011, 09:40:40 PM »
Also, RE realistic monks and monk weapons, the whole monk weapon business is simply making use of weapons that double as farm tools or similarly innocuous things so they don't draw attention, and additionally, making these weapons as lethal as, or more effective than their martial equivalents in the monk's hands.
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Andion Isurand

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2011, 10:02:14 PM »
I would add Autohypnosis and Iaijutsu Focus to the list of Monk class skills, in addition to whatever else is going on.

JaronK

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2011, 10:09:14 PM »
Some ideas I've used to bump Monks up to T3 level:

1)  Give monks the ability to channel their chi through their attacks, effectively letting them gain magical bonuses with such attacks.  At every 2 levels the total enhancement of their unarmed attacks goes up by 1, but they can't put more than half that bonus into any one thing (except at level 2-3 where they simply have a +1 bonus).  Thus, at level 6 their unarmed strikes could be +1 Flaming Shocking, but not +2, nor could they use any +2 enhancement until level 8.  Give them the ability to meditate for 1 hour once per day to change their enchantments (thus, a 6th level Monk could realize he's about to fight a lot of undead and make his attacks +1 Bane Undead of Disruption if he wanted).  He may also channel his chi through any non magical monk weapon.  Possibly have this ability use up wealth much like the Ancestral Relic feat does.  Possibly have a similar ability for enchanting his body like armor.

2)  Make abundant step actually abundant, so Monks can at will teleport a distance up to their Monk level X 5' as a full round action at level 5, as a standard action at level 10, as a move action at level 15, and as a swift action at level 20 (possibly faster progression than this if you like, maybe even ending with immediate action teleportation).  Possibly they can only teleport to locations they can see.

3)  Give Monks a "Balance on Clouds" ability that lets them fly short distances.  They could fly a number of rounds equal to their Monk level at a time at will (but must touch the ground to reset the timer), with their flight maneuverability increasing steadily as they level up from clumsy all the way to perfect, starting around level 5-6 or so.

4)  Have flurry apply any time the Monk makes an attack, even if it's a standard action attack or charge attack.  Flurry just gives you that many extra attacks.  Also, have a boosted flurry at higher levels that gives you a third extra attack.

5)  Give Monks better and better abilities to sense magic around them, starting with Detect Magic at low levels and ending with always on True Sight at higher levels.

6)  Make Quivering Palm an at will ability that sacrifices the extra attacks of flurry for a more devastating hit.  Perhaps it's a standard action to actually hit that can't work with flurry (nor be an AoO), and as you level up the hit itself could do more (cause double damage, be a touch attack, dispel magic on the target you hit with it, etc).  Thus, it becomes a combat option instead of a random once a week thing.  Maybe the secondary effect starts with just another hit of damage as an immediate action (making it good for disrupting spells, and perhaps it could even raise the DC more than normal) that builds in nastiness until it becomes a save or die.

7)  Give Monks more Wisdom synergy.  Things like Wis to hit, Wis to Fort and Reflex saves, Wis to damage, and even Wisdom X 5' to movement speed could be interesting.

8)  Give Monks powerful senses in general, like Blindsense and Tremorsense.

In the end, you'd have a Monk who was mobile, dangerous, and flexible.  That could do the trick.  Plus, they become less gear dependent (many folks want that, and it would be useful to make sure that first ability could still work with VoP in some way) and better actual caster killers (due to seeing through illusions, and Quivering Palm).

JaronK

veekie

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2011, 10:18:57 PM »
^^
I think I got some of those.
Missed 1(partial), 5 and 8 though.
And it'd still be T4 no doubt.
The mind transcends the body.
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2011, 12:06:13 AM »
I wouldn't worry about CoD too much, as long as your monk class isn't progressing spellcasting or wildshape

I personally cringe at the thought of flying monks, however, I could see being able to jump really high/far, spiderclimb, and make insane balance and tumble checks at running speed...  :shrug

How about a version of flyby attack that let's you run(charge) past an opponent and flurry as you go by?

I also agree with full bab, add more skills, be able to flurry on any attack
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veekie

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2011, 12:12:40 AM »
In mine its less a case of flying and more like falling with style.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2011, 12:55:23 AM »
Short-term flight is a major staple of fantasy (Eastern) monks.

Watch basically any wuxia you like and you'll see what I mean.
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JaronK

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2011, 02:29:49 AM »
Exactly, think crouching tiger hidden dragon and similar.  Running along rooftops only touching for moments, making ridiculously long leaps, running on leaves... this is pretty much standard.  Hence trying to make abilities that do similar things within D&D mechanics.

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2011, 03:06:54 AM »
Monks should have samurai jack style "jump good" abilities.

Hmmm... what if monks counted only half of jump distance against their normal movement for the round? 
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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2011, 06:13:46 AM »
Within the D&D mechanics, jumping only cuts it for a few levels.  You need to be able to fly to be useful.  If Monks just have a bunch of abilities that are only good when you can't fly, then those abilities really don't matter much.

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2011, 06:24:06 AM »
I would also change the class granted unarmed damage of a medium sized monk to top out at 3d8 instead of 2d10...

...given that small monks top out at 2d8 and large ones at 4d8.

Within the D&D mechanics, jumping only cuts it for a few levels.  You need to be able to fly to be useful.  If Monks just have a bunch of abilities that are only good when you can't fly, then those abilities really don't matter much.

JaronK

Perhaps a peek at the Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium) would help... they gain a fly speed equal to their land speed (average maneuverability) as a supernatural ability at level 17.

Or perhaps... before they gain the ability to fly, you could give Monks a Glide speed equal to their land speed instead of Slow Fall, that increases in maneuverability (max of average) and "distance/descent" ratio as they gain levels.  And make them lose it if carrying a medium or heavy load.  That way when they jump, they can travel great distances and land light on their feet true to the mystic cinematic style.

You could add the Great Leap and Speed Climb abilities of the Ninja (CAd 5) as well as a similar ability to walk across water, where they sink if they stop.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 07:08:13 AM by Andion Isurand »

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2011, 06:43:17 AM »
Within the D&D mechanics, jumping only cuts it for a few levels.  You need to be able to fly to be useful.  If Monks just have a bunch of abilities that are only good when you can't fly, then those abilities really don't matter much.

JaronK
Well, depends on how far you can jump.  I'm thinking like hundreds of feat by the teens.
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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2011, 07:06:15 AM »
I would add Autohypnosis and Iaijutsu Focus to the list of Monk class skills, in addition to whatever else is going on.
Alright, done.
Some ideas I've used to bump Monks up to T3 level:

1)  Give monks the ability to channel their chi through their attacks, effectively letting them gain magical bonuses with such attacks.  At every 2 levels the total enhancement of their unarmed attacks goes up by 1, but they can't put more than half that bonus into any one thing (except at level 2-3 where they simply have a +1 bonus).  Thus, at level 6 their unarmed strikes could be +1 Flaming Shocking, but not +2, nor could they use any +2 enhancement until level 8.  Give them the ability to meditate for 1 hour once per day to change their enchantments (thus, a 6th level Monk could realize he's about to fight a lot of undead and make his attacks +1 Bane Undead of Disruption if he wanted).  He may also channel his chi through any non magical monk weapon.  Possibly have this ability use up wealth much like the Ancestral Relic feat does.  Possibly have a similar ability for enchanting his body like armor.
This is an equipment substitute - leaving them more money for other things, but making a VoP monk pretty obsolete.
Quote
2)  Make abundant step actually abundant, so Monks can at will teleport a distance up to their Monk level X 5' as a full round action at level 5, as a standard action at level 10, as a move action at level 15, and as a swift action at level 20 (possibly faster progression than this if you like, maybe even ending with immediate action teleportation).  Possibly they can only teleport to locations they can see.
I don't want to create a shadowpouncer, and even so, level 20 is too late, IF you want them to have that ability.
Quote
3)  Give Monks a "Balance on Clouds" ability that lets them fly short distances.  They could fly a number of rounds equal to their Monk level at a time at will (but must touch the ground to reset the timer), with their flight maneuverability increasing steadily as they level up from clumsy all the way to perfect, starting around level 5-6 or so.
Got that.
Quote
4)  Have flurry apply any time the Monk makes an attack, even if it's a standard action attack or charge attack.  Flurry just gives you that many extra attacks.  Also, have a boosted flurry at higher levels that gives you a third extra attack.
Good idea, double hitting as a standard action or Spring attack would make them special.
Quote
5)  Give Monks better and better abilities to sense magic around them, starting with Detect Magic at low levels and ending with always on True Sight at higher levels.
Hmmm... it's not thematic, but why not...
Quote
6)  Make Quivering Palm an at will ability that sacrifices the extra attacks of flurry for a more devastating hit.  Perhaps it's a standard action to actually hit that can't work with flurry (nor be an AoO), and as you level up the hit itself could do more (cause double damage, be a touch attack, dispel magic on the target you hit with it, etc).  Thus, it becomes a combat option instead of a random once a week thing.  Maybe the secondary effect starts with just another hit of damage as an immediate action (making it good for disrupting spells, and perhaps it could even raise the DC more than normal) that builds in nastiness until it becomes a save or die.
Hmm, so... give up one flurry attack, gain 3d6 on all other attacks? Or more? Less? Scaling? I suggest maybe.. 1/2 monk level d6, as special non-reducible ki-damage?

Quote
7)  Give Monks more Wisdom synergy.  Things like Wis to hit, Wis to Fort and Reflex saves, Wis to damage, and even Wisdom X 5' to movement speed could be interesting.
Umm... have that already, and movement speed is fine, IMHO.
(Wis to attack, Wis to damage up to monk level, Wis to daily uses of pretty much everything.)
Quote
8)  Give Monks powerful senses in general, like Blindsense and Tremorsense.
Alright. I think by now a special ability collection is necessary. I would also add stuff such as Mage Slayer and Pierce feats by default.


Ok, although some suggestions were redundant, thanks nevertheless.

Short-term flight is a major staple of fantasy (Eastern) monks.

Watch basically any wuxia you like and you'll see what I mean.

So: Jumping: I'm thinking Leap of the Heavens as a bonus feat some time early - maybe make the bonus feats choices, anyway, so you don't always have to bother with the fighting styles. Then give him the benefit of the Pole Vault feat (x3 DC multiplier instead of x4) some time before he can fly long distances, so jumping and short-term flight can go hand in hand.

Then short term Flight:
Ok, so during the Wuxia phase (about... 10 to 16?) they should have that, probably a bit earlier. But after that the game just changes to Superheroes, anyway. Which means wuxia no longer cuts it, and you need real flight. But at what level should they be able to fly indefinitely? I have 16 or so. Veekie I think doesn't have it earlier, either.

^^
I think I got some of those.
Missed 1(partial), 5 and 8 though.
And it'd still be T4 no doubt.

Hmmm... I don't think another "pool" class is necessary. Whatever they have, they should have either for the day, or indefinitely. I like the improved Ascetic aspects.

Then again, if you go with a Ki-pool, you could just make a generic "Ki-warrior" class, which can use their abilities either unarmed, with weapons, with special abilties... whatever. Sort like a Ki-Incarnate, with less animalistic or showy magical abilities.

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2011, 07:33:49 AM »
Give them spells or maneuvers. Or psionics. Or whatever :p
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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2011, 07:45:20 AM »
The disciple of the word in Tome of Magic can punch the magic out of people.

I've given similar abilities to all my custom racial classes to give them an answer to casters (The maug squeezes and smashes the magic out of enemies). Bitches need to be dispelled more often.

Half the shit that monk PrCs can do should be available to the monk base class.
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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2011, 08:54:37 AM »
I would also give them as a class feature a version of Ring the Golden Bell that can be used times/encounter.

veekie

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2011, 09:42:47 AM »
Actually, I did have early flight, I just wrapped it up in Slow Fall seeing as this is how wuxia slow falling is supposed to work anyway.
Quote
Slow Fall(Ex)
At 4th level, a monk can slow his descent with ki.
As long as he has at least one ki point in his ki pool, he reduces the distance he falls each round by 10 feet, allowing him to stay airbourne if he is only 10ft off the ground as long as he has ki points in his ki pool. The distance increases by 10ft for every 4 monk levels.
The monk can move and jump normally while in the air, but must move at least 10ft in any direction each round or fall normally. The monk can choose to reduce a fall by less than the maximum distance.
At 16th level, the monk can stay in the air as per Air Walk indefinitely. He no longer needs to move 10ft to keep from falling.
At 20th level, gravity no longer has any hold over the monk and he can move at his full land speed in any direction he chooses, as if he has a fly speed equal to his land speed at perfect manueverability.
The monk cannot wear armor, use a shield, or carry more than a light load while using this ability.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Brainpiercing

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2011, 09:50:07 AM »
Ah, that's also a nice way of handling it. Ok.

veekie

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2011, 10:10:48 AM »
Yeah, though up until 8th level all it does is maybe give you the High Ground advantage, since you're totally within reach of someone on the ground.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

bananaphone

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Re: Is this Monk revision Tier 3? If not, what is missing?
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2011, 10:52:04 AM »
Perhaps have a broad list of abilities that you can choose from every 3 or so levels?  So you could customize/specialize your character a bit,and no two monks would be exactly the same.  Think Tatooed Monk, only actually good.
(This is in addition to the staple Monk abilities of course)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 10:55:12 AM by bananaphone »