Author Topic: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard  (Read 6290 times)

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Bard

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[3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« on: February 21, 2011, 09:53:13 PM »
So... I'm gonna start a campaign in a couple of weeks, and it's supposed to start from level 3 and hopefully go into the epic levels. Since it's quite long and I don't like changing PCs during a campaign, I'm trying really hard to do something I won't get bored with (aka, can fulfill multiple different roles).

Let's start with some restrictions I have on it:
* Most of the settings-neutral books are ok (and some others that don't have much for wizards anyway), so no FR or Eberron books or the like.
* Race has to be Human (not that I'd pick anything else anyway)
* Alignment has to be good (or at worse neutral)
* First PrC has to be the Warmage (Dragonlance setting, Age of Mortals book) (I'll be, possibly till lvl 12, a wizard in a revolutionary army, so I got this as my first Prc for levels 5-10)
* I need to take at least one item creation feat (I was thinking of Wonderous Items)
* Divination spell tend to stop working in any situation they'd be useful in :rollseyes (that makes Spontaneous Divination more or less useless)
* Excessive use of summoning tend to end up with a angry DM having the summoned creatures attack whoever summoned them.
* I'll be the only "full" arcane spellcaster in a party of 6 people
* I MIGHT be able to use UA Flaws, but don't count on it :P

What I want it to have:
* Battlefield control/save or sucks
* Good Blasting (yes, I know I shouldn't but the Dragonlance Warmage is really good at it so I'd prefer to avoid wasting it)
* Lots of utility (well, that's good enough by just being a wizard)
* Buffing won't be that useful (it doesn't stack with item bonuses mostly and we'll get the items

What I was thinking about and my doubts:
I was thinking about playing a Conjurer (with Immediate Magic variant from PHB2) and going Warmage, Master Specialist dip for Skill Focus, Archmage 2 or 3, and then possibly Magic Missile Mage from the Dragon Magazine Compendium (low requirements and with Warmage/Knowledge Devotion it's quite a solid choice, possibly Fiery Spell from SS and some metamagic/arcane thesis if I have feats to spare, which I doubt).
Possibly feats like Spell Focus(conjuration and good), Consacrate Spell, Cloudy Conjuration (as DM ruled that it give the -2 penality even for the spell it's attached to), Spellcasting Prodigy (from Age of Mortals too, considers Intelligence to be 2 points higher when calculating save DC and bonus spels, needs to be taken at lvl 1)

The issue with that is... I'm a specialist mage, and while that gives me Immediate Magic (love it) and the ability to save one feat by dipping Master Specialist, it seriously cripples my spell list...
Since I can't really drop the usual Evocation since I need to do some blasting, I have to choose two between the useful schools... Enchanting could be one but I would lose the "animal exterminator" (Ray of Stupidity) and a lot of versatility in non-combat situations, same goes with Necromancy and a lot of the best Save or suck spells and the "clumsy slayer" Shivering Touch (especially since Archmage makes it ranged touch), Illusion would strip me of Invisibility and Mirror Images lines of spell and some other utility.

So I was thinking about trying to do something with a generalist (domain variant possibly) wizard. Anyone has some ideas to how to make that build fit and add something to compensate for Immediate Magic (Conjuration) as Panic Button?

Also, which one of the two (specialist vs generalist) would you pick?
Anyway ANY opinion, suggestion, any build you found fun, whatever is welcome.

Edit: For now the actual build looks something like this
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 06:52:44 PM by Bard »
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Bester

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Re: [3.5] need some help with a wizard
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2011, 11:08:25 PM »
* Excessive use of summoning tend to end up with a angry DM having the summoned creatures attack whoever summoned them.

Yet you want to play a conjurer. ???

I'd hit this dm with all those annoying low level battlefield control spells...grease, web, glitterdust etc.

If he is having that much of a problem with summons, he's in for a world of hurt.

Express to your dm that part of his job is anticipating what the pcs can do and playing to their strengths, not his ego.

Bard

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2011, 11:19:54 PM »
Well the choice of conjurer is due to a mix of all those annoying battlefield control spells and the immediate action teleport to avoid painful things.
About polymorph, the only issue he really has with it, is that when you start summoning a dozen of creatures during an encounter it really slows down the pace of the fight, and it sorta killed the fun in a previous campaign, where we had a druid that summoned at least 4-5 bears each round... so now to avoid the risk of it happening again it "sort of" forbids it. I can still use all summoning spells out of combat and in combat if needed, it's just not worth optimizing them that much by taking feats on them, especially considering we already have a druid and a ranger with animal companions, so that makes 8 between players and creatures that need to act each round.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

symisin

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2011, 11:30:06 PM »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: [3.5] need some help with a wizard
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2011, 11:35:36 PM »
* Excessive use of summoning tend to end up with a angry DM having the summoned creatures attack whoever summoned them.

Yet you want to play a conjurer. ???
Go look through Treant Monk's guide to conjuration spells. You could play a fantastic conjurer and never summon anything... You could  dump evocation and still be a good blaster mostly by using conjuration. And nearly all the good battlefield control spells are conjuration.

So yeah. Conjurer =/= Summoner.

Now for some tips for the OP: Just about the best damned wizard feat ever printed is Uncanny Forethought. Despite being in Exemplars of Evil, it has no alignment requirement and has nothing at all to do with being evil. Take it. I'd suggest banning Enchantment and Necromancy if you can't use "evil" spells (and it sounds like you can't). Yeah, Necromancy has some great debuffs, but so do most of the other schools. So you can live without it. You should feel dirty for wanting to abuse Shivering Touch and Ray of Stupidity, anyway. If you really feel adventurous, go ahead and ban Evocation too and go with a Focused Conjurer. With Illusion, Transmutation, and Conjuration still in the game, you won't miss any of those much. If you wind up with another caster in the party, you might also consider banning Abjuration. I mostly keep it for Dispels, anyway.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2011, 12:07:00 AM »
Yeah, battlefield control is king. If you want blasty, I'd go with spells that give you the ability to deal damage throughout a battle with a single spell slot, especially with secondary effects. See if you can research the druid spell produce flame or something similar.

The more damage over time you can do, the better off you'll be. No sense wasting spell slots on nothing but damage, after all.
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I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
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My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
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[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Bard

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2011, 12:28:33 AM »
@PhaedrusXY:
That feat, even if it's actually two feats I'll have to make space for, it's really good, thanks for the tip (I didn't even check that book since the title is... evil :D)

And no, while I do feel bad doing stuff like Item of Truestrike at will, or going around with a bag of holding full of ice to snowcast, and similar cheese, I don't really feel bad when I exploit the weakness of some enemy using an unmodified spell I find in a book (even if I do realize that whoever created them was possibly under the influence of drugs).

Anyway dropping Evocation is somewhat off the table since considering I have 2 feats and 5 levels locked in a blaster PrC (that among other things gives a +3 to EACH DIE of damage) and Shadow Evocation and the blast spell of Conjuration just don't cut it for area blasting (for single target the Force Missile Mage is possibly better than both anyway). Abjuration would have been a good choice normally, especially since I think that killing something is the best way to dispell everything, but knowing the DM, I'll need AMF quite a bit in the later levels (plus hey, if I'll be an Archmage that spells gets a whole lot better).
At the end of the day I think that, as you say,dropping Enchantment and Necromancy is the best.

Also, any thoughts about Granted Domain Power from Complete Champion and the Magic Domain? Would that let me use scrolls/wands/etc with my forbidden schools?

@symisin: Thanks for the link, luckily for me I've known and loved that guide for a lot of time, actually my old mage was a pureblood "god" too ;D

@Lycan:
Other than that the specific spell is... not that useful, the idea is good, I might as well search to see if there's something like that around. I might even try and see if my DM would let me research/create a spell like that later in the levels, he usually does.
That was one of the reasons I was thinking of getting the Force Missile Mage actually, using those not-so-useful-(at high level)-1st-level-slot to store normal magic missiles, would still net me around 80 damage each cast with the right feats (Knowledge Devotion and possibly Fiery Spell)...
Granted, it's not a lot at all next to a TWF Craven Rogue or a Lion Totem Frenzied Berserker, but hey... it's a 1st level slot!

On that note a Reserve Feat might be a good idea tho... the issue is that feats are really scarce for a mage :\
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

stranglebat

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2011, 12:40:50 AM »
You don't NEED evocation so much for blasty spells, there is quite a bit of it in Conjuration (AKA the orb spells Wall of Fire etc) most of which ignore spell resistance to boot. Also shadow Evocation from illusion can help fill the gap with clever use. But if you really want it take it. 

As for Enchantment if you really want ray of stupidity I suggest an eternal wand or 2 of it. You can cast spells not on your list with those so thats 2 to 4 T Rex Euthanasias a day :)

Necromancy does have the best debuffs but the spell list is severely reduced if you can't cast evil spells.

Abjuration is worth keeping if you are going epic just for Maw of Chaos :D

Just pick to your play style and it won't matter as long as you keep Conjuration and Transmutation

Bard

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2011, 06:51:51 PM »
OK, so for now the actual build looks something like this

Anything anyone would change or do differently?
I'd like to fit back two feets, but I wouldn't know what to trade them with:
Arcane Thesis over Magic Missiles (because it is pure awesome)
Fiery Spell (since I can change energy descriptor of all my elemental blasting spell with Archmage)

Also, is there anything I can do to increase another bit the save DC of spells? Items are good too. (now it's at +1 for all spells, +4 for Conjuration and +2 for some other school)
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2011, 07:10:10 PM »
Initiate of the sevenfold veil from levels 10 to 17, then archmage. Grab the Master specialist levels from 3-5 or 2-5 with a feat.

Initiate might need a lot of feats, but is pretty invincible on the other hand.

Consider being a transmuter. Their immediate magic is not as good, but I like their spells better if you remove the summoning spells from conjuration, in particular the calling spells.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 08:29:05 PM »
You can replace abrupt jaunt with the shadow cloak from DotU.
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Bard

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2011, 08:46:42 PM »
Sorry for the delay in answering, I was sorta busy :P (and thanks for the

@Mixster:
Getting archmage at that level would mean that I can't throw any aoe (blast, debuff or BFC) for 90% of the time till level 17, PLUS not getting the Master Specialist I'd lose one feat, not even counting the ones to qualify for the Initiate :\ If I got the master specialists at level 3, I'd lose a feat anyway (the lvl 5 one), getting it earlier would be even worse.
I concur it's a great class as I've experienced firsthand when I played an Abjurer a couple of years back (with Abjurant Champion it's even better and it was awesome to play, especially when the whole party started pushing people in the walls with two DC vs death on each pass :P), but it doesn't fit the concept of the "battlefield" mage at all :\

Transmutation it's a good school, but it's a lot buff-centered, and in a situation where more or less all magic item crafting is covered in the party, it loses quite a bit of his utility (take haste for example, great spell, but a +1 enchantment in a weapon permanently reproduces the most useful part of the spell... same for buffs to str, int, cos, etc and items, and so on... sure, a lot of good spell are still there, but...); the polymorph part of Transmutation gives it best when the character isn't humanoid and I can't do that :\ No Elans or pink frogs for me. And I don't really feel like doing some melee gish mage :P (Still I'll probably perma-polymorph-any-object on myself at some point)

@Mad Linguist:
nice find that item, I'll sure take it into consideration, at least to suggest it to some other squishy in my party or if I'll do a generalist/otherwise specialized wizard, but considering I get the Abrupt Jaunt for "free" giving up the familiar that I wouldn't use much anyway (I know I should, but I know myself, I ALWAYS forget about it) I would just end with the same amount of feats, a quite useful body-slot busy with it, and a familiar lost in the demiplane of forgotten companions.
Still that item is a veeery nice find.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2011, 10:41:10 PM »
Being humanoid doesn't affect very much for polymorph at all. It's still broken beyond all recognition.

The best part of Haste is the extra attack and movement, not the +1 to-hit.

Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2011, 11:11:12 PM »
Be careful with PAO on yourself. You gain the new form's Intelligence score. Not the best move for most wizards... Use it on your Big Stupid Fighter. :D
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Tshern

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2011, 11:13:42 PM »
Be careful with PAO on yourself. You gain the new form's Intelligence score. Not the best move for most wizards... Use it on your Big Stupid Fighter. :D
Agreed. Draconic polymorph on the other hand...

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2011, 11:32:20 PM »
Be careful with PAO on yourself. You gain the new form's Intelligence score. Not the best move for most wizards... Use it on your Big Stupid Fighter. :D
Sarrukh.

Int of 30 + level-ups + age modifiers + inherent bonuses + a headband of Int?

It's a VERY good move for wizards.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2011, 11:39:04 PM »
Sorry for the delay in answering, I was sorta busy :P (and thanks for the

@Mad Linguist:
nice find that item, I'll sure take it into consideration, at least to suggest it to some other squishy in my party or if I'll do a generalist/otherwise specialized wizard, but considering I get the Abrupt Jaunt for "free" giving up the familiar that I wouldn't use much anyway (I know I should, but I know myself, I ALWAYS forget about it) I would just end with the same amount of feats, a quite useful body-slot busy with it, and a familiar lost in the demiplane of forgotten companions.
Still that item is a veeery nice find.
It's not expensive even if you use the MIC item combining rules to stick it on something else.  Just assume it's constantly aiding another, and mark the +2 on all the skills it would be relevant on.
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Tshern

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2011, 11:39:36 PM »
Remember to get the age modifiers and inherents after your transformation.

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Bard

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2011, 12:00:34 AM »
Quote from: BeholderSlayer link=topic=11123.msg381865#msg381865

The best part of Haste is the extra attack and movement, not the +1 to-hit.


I was talking about the "haste"enhancement on weapons, that is worth iirc a +1

Also talking about pao the plan was to use it to GAIN int, and using the skin of prometheus to look human anyway AND    to buff the BSF with some non-permanent poly.
Btw is a wizzy able to dismiss spellswith a duration or do I need to dispell the BSF if it lasts too long?
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Andion Isurand

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Re: [3.5] need some tips building a wizard
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2011, 12:02:47 AM »
Is there any published text that, in effect, states that level increases, inherit bonuses and age bonuses stack onto the new mental ability scores resulting from PAO?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 12:13:07 AM by Andion Isurand »