Author Topic: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.  (Read 19956 times)

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Rejakor

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2011, 01:12:18 AM »
Troll alert.


'fly or levitate spell or effect' refers to any spell of that name or effect of that name.  Improved Dragon Wings is not the same thing as the Fly spell.  It is not based on the Fly spell.  It has nothing to do with the Fly spell.  Nor, for that matter, the Levitate spell.

To put this more simply.  When an ability refers to a 'spell or effect', it's referring to a 'spell or magic effect'.  Including but not limited to Spell-Like Abilities; Supernatural Abilities; the Effects of Spells; the Effects of Magic Items.

So, 1.  It names two specific spells that you can't use to trigger this feat.  This build uses neither of those spells.  2.  It specifies spells, not 'any ability that grants flight'.  This build uses natural flight, not flight granted by spells.

So, you're not just wrong, you're doublewrong.

Bauglir

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2011, 01:52:51 AM »
While I'm not necessarily 100% sure of what Rejakor's arguing (about the definition of an effect), he's still correct because in this case the spell or effect in question has to be a fly or levitate; arguably, overland flight works since it's technically none of those, although the counterargument to that is that it's based on fly. Nevertheless, since there's nothing here that references one, this works just fine.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

ZeroKnight

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2011, 03:34:04 AM »
Troll alert.


'fly or levitate spell or effect' refers to any spell of that name or effect of that name.  Improved Dragon Wings is not the same thing as the Fly spell.  It is not based on the Fly spell.  It has nothing to do with the Fly spell.  Nor, for that matter, the Levitate spell.

To put this more simply.  When an ability refers to a 'spell or effect', it's referring to a 'spell or magic effect'.  Including but not limited to Spell-Like Abilities; Supernatural Abilities; the Effects of Spells; the Effects of Magic Items.

So, 1.  It names two specific spells that you can't use to trigger this feat.  This build uses neither of those spells.  2.  It specifies spells, not 'any ability that grants flight'.  This build uses natural flight, not flight granted by spells.

So, you're not just wrong, you're doublewrong.

But could you please show where an effect is referred to as a magical effect?

Echoes

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2011, 06:54:19 AM »
Troll alert.


'fly or levitate spell or effect' refers to any spell of that name or effect of that name.  Improved Dragon Wings is not the same thing as the Fly spell.  It is not based on the Fly spell.  It has nothing to do with the Fly spell.  Nor, for that matter, the Levitate spell.

To put this more simply.  When an ability refers to a 'spell or effect', it's referring to a 'spell or magic effect'.  Including but not limited to Spell-Like Abilities; Supernatural Abilities; the Effects of Spells; the Effects of Magic Items.

So, 1.  It names two specific spells that you can't use to trigger this feat.  This build uses neither of those spells.  2.  It specifies spells, not 'any ability that grants flight'.  This build uses natural flight, not flight granted by spells.

So, you're not just wrong, you're doublewrong.

But could you please show where an effect is referred to as a magical effect?

Natural flight is neither a fly nor levitate effect.
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As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

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ZeroKnight

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2011, 08:48:26 AM »
Troll alert.


'fly or levitate spell or effect' refers to any spell of that name or effect of that name.  Improved Dragon Wings is not the same thing as the Fly spell.  It is not based on the Fly spell.  It has nothing to do with the Fly spell.  Nor, for that matter, the Levitate spell.

To put this more simply.  When an ability refers to a 'spell or effect', it's referring to a 'spell or magic effect'.  Including but not limited to Spell-Like Abilities; Supernatural Abilities; the Effects of Spells; the Effects of Magic Items.

So, 1.  It names two specific spells that you can't use to trigger this feat.  This build uses neither of those spells.  2.  It specifies spells, not 'any ability that grants flight'.  This build uses natural flight, not flight granted by spells.

So, you're not just wrong, you're doublewrong.

But could you please show where an effect is referred to as a magical effect?

Natural flight is neither a fly nor levitate effect.
ok, I think I understand now. So you could do this with spells that wherent specifically fly or levitate.

So how do you fall only 5ft? Rules seem to say otherwise

Echoes

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2011, 08:51:12 AM »
You stop flying. This makes you fall.

Alternatively, you could dive your target.
BrokeAndDrive speaks the Truth (linked for great justice and signature limits)

Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

ZeroKnight

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2011, 09:19:29 AM »
You stop flying. This makes you fall.

Alternatively, you could dive your target.

No, I get that. But you can't just fall 5 ft. The rules say you drop 150ft a round, and if you are still falling, you can make a DC 20 reflex save to regain flight.

Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2011, 07:34:24 PM »
Sure you can just fall five feet, you stop at the end of a charge, remember?

nijineko

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2011, 04:07:37 AM »
besides, charge actions explicitly state that no movement may be taken after the charge action in the same round.
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Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2011, 04:05:24 AM »
besides, charge actions explicitly state that no movement may be taken after the charge action in the same round.
Where's that? I believe you have the option.

Nox_Noctis

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2011, 05:26:56 AM »
Nijineko may be thinking of 4e, where charging ends your turn.
3.5e is no 4e. :D
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nijineko

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2011, 02:30:55 AM »
;D hold your tongue. i've never played 4e. =P

quote from d20srd:

Quote
Movement During a Charge

You must move before your attack, not after.

and

Quote
Charging is a special full-round action...

and

Quote

taken in combination, you basically cannot move after a charge. unless, and i've mentioned this before, you can cough up extra move or standard action within the same round, though a literal-stupid rendering of the rules could nullify move-related actions after a charge regardless; depends on the dm. ^^
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 02:33:20 AM by nijineko »
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ZeroKnight

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2011, 02:31:40 AM »
Sure you can just fall five feet, you stop at the end of a charge, remember?

Where does it say that?

nijineko

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2011, 02:34:41 AM »
see my post above yours. ^^
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Nox_Noctis

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2011, 05:47:59 PM »

Quote
Movement During a Charge

You must move before your attack, not after.

This regards the movement during a charge, not all movement in a round in which you charge.

Quote
Charging is a special full-round action...

Battle Jump lets you initiate a charge under a new condition that does not require a full-round action.

Quote

This part remains true. You won't be able to take a 5-foot step in a round when you use Battle Jump.
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nijineko

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2011, 03:22:10 AM »
i'm pretty sure the wording of battle jump only says that you can count a 5'+ drop as a charge, not that a charge is not a full round action. does the feat say that using the feat is a standard or move action? if not, then it defaults to whatever action a charge is.

and considering a charge is a full round action, that's pretty much all the movement you can make in the round, to boot.
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2011, 03:57:02 AM »
So how do you fall only 5ft? Rules seem to say otherwise
I think the assumption might be that your opponent is standing on the ground, so you stop falling when you land.  Boots of Landing are a cheap way to avoid falling prone if you can't handle that with skills.  You may have a point if the opponent is also flying.

(Personally, I don't think this should generate actions either-- for reasons spelled out earlier in the thread-- but I'm willing to roll with it if it's already been hashed out elsewhere.)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 03:59:11 AM by CrimsonDeath »

nijineko

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2011, 08:01:35 PM »
i see what you are saying now. however, i think i still disagree on your interpretation.
While I respect your opinion, we're in the 'You Break It, You Buy It' section. This rule is commonly interpreted in this way and it is the way that I am now using it for the purposes of optimization. We went over it extensively in the previous thread, so there's no need to argue the point further.

where is that thread please? i would like to review the logic and references on both sides. thank you in advance.
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Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2011, 03:54:26 AM »
Same title, but in the 'Min/Max It!' board. This argument has been done to death. Don't continue it, that's why this thread was moved to this board. This build uses one particular controversial RAW meaning of the rule, and thus it is firmly TO.

nijineko

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2011, 12:33:55 PM »
i see. thanks on both accounts.
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