Author Topic: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?  (Read 6494 times)

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Solo

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2011, 08:51:20 PM »
Quote
Fighter: 'Yes, the dress looks very nice on you.'
Having spent a lot of time around low Cha males who treat bluff as a cross-class skill, I can assure you that such lies rarely work.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Kuroimaken

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2011, 08:52:24 PM »
Endarire- That would imply that they intended things to be unbalanced/unequal. I don't think it was a matter of intent. 4e goes a long way towards making sure that it is very hard to create a sub-par character. Besides, what would CO people do all day if the value of each choice was spelled out clearly??

Actually, it goes a long way towards making sure that it's very hard to make ANYTHING that deviates from their desired end result, to wit: a tedious wargame where your success is dependant on whether your DM cripples you out of your resources or not.

Seriously, you'll be hard-pressed to find a character that sucks worse than the rest of the others in that game... because in the end, EVERYBODY sucks the same.
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Final Fantasy 7
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Kuroimaken

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2011, 08:53:40 PM »
Quote
Fighter: 'Yes, the dress looks very nice on you.'
Having spent a lot of time around low Cha males who treat bluff as a cross-class skill, I can assure you that such lies rarely work.

I've either got a better CHA score than I give myself credit for or bluff as a class skill, because they work well enough for me...
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Kajhera

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2011, 08:56:58 PM »
Quote
Fighter: 'Yes, the dress looks very nice on you.'
Having spent a lot of time around low Cha males who treat bluff as a cross-class skill, I can assure you that such lies rarely work.

Perhaps you just know you don't look good in a dress?

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2011, 08:57:13 PM »
Quote
Fighter: 'Yes, the dress looks very nice on you.'
Having spent a lot of time around low Cha males who treat bluff as a cross-class skill, I can assure you that such lies rarely work.

I've either got a better CHA score than I give myself credit for or bluff as a class skill, because they work well enough for me...

Dude, you're a Crusader. Not that hard to believe you've got a solid Cha score.


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Solo

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2011, 08:58:34 PM »
Quote
Perhaps you just know you don't look good in a dress?
Well, it does tend to cover my best assets...

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Kuroimaken

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2011, 09:17:14 PM »
Quote
Fighter: 'Yes, the dress looks very nice on you.'
Having spent a lot of time around low Cha males who treat bluff as a cross-class skill, I can assure you that such lies rarely work.

I've either got a better CHA score than I give myself credit for or bluff as a class skill, because they work well enough for me...

Dude, you're a Crusader. Not that hard to believe you've got a solid Cha score.

Funny, I always pictured myself as a swordsage...  :P

Wait, that's Agita.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Bloody Initiate

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2011, 10:18:20 PM »
The idea of deliberately making something underpowered or inadequate seems crazy to me. So the idea that anyone else did it or would do it strikes me as absurd... at first.

Then I remember that it wasn't just one person. You submit your work to the editing power of others and they tend to both improve it and depreciate it.

You don't always get the final word, in fact you rarely do because there are more writers/creators than editors.

So let's say fighters started out pretty good, in fact they started out great.

Then someone said "Take this out, it seems unnecessary"

Another person says "This part seems overpowered"

All the while a separate team is mutilating and nerfing feats.

Finally you get the finished product to the editor, who inevitably has a different vision than everyone else, and chops the last nub of the fighter's dick off.

The team isn't nearly so hard on the wizard because it's OBVIOUSLY not overpowered, they barely get any class features at all.

A separate team tries hard to get the language for spells down, but the power level is allowed to be high because "it's magic," after all.

For the record, although they fucked a lot of it up pretty bad, the same team created a system you all still find fascinating.

I just wish they hadn't all been such geeks. I wish some actual fighters had designed parts of the game, so you don't end up with a billion feats required to TWF effectively (Most of which just subsume the last one, making it useless aside from prerequisites.) I've fought with two weapons, it felt natural, intuitive, and easy.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 10:21:30 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2011, 10:20:39 PM »
The best example of that sort of committee designing is kobolds.

1) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
3) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
5) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
4) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
2) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
6) Kobolds assemble all those bones into a giant dracolich mecha, destroying game balance with their flaming atomic breath.
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Kajhera

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2011, 10:30:41 PM »
The best example of that sort of committee designing is kobolds.

1) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
3) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
5) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
4) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
2) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
6) Kobolds assemble all those bones into a giant dracolich mecha, destroying game balance with their flaming atomic breath.

 :evillaugh

Sinfire Titan

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2011, 10:37:09 PM »
The best example of that sort of committee designing is kobolds.

1) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
3) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
5) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
4) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
2) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
6) Kobolds assemble all those bones into a giant dracolich mecha, destroying game balance with their flaming atomic breath.

Something similar happened with Elf subraces.


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X-Codes

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2011, 11:49:25 PM »
Quote
Fighter: 'Yes, the dress looks very nice on you.'
Having spent a lot of time around low Cha males who treat bluff as a cross-class skill, I can assure you that such lies rarely work.
I'm a bard.  My problem is I was telling the truth.

Gavinfoxx

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2011, 02:19:14 AM »
I would say they would have to say something about the amount of rules mastery needed to really get a class to shine.  Like it would be high for the fighter, and wizard low for barbarian, warblade, druid.  Stuff like that.
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Unbeliever

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2011, 03:43:27 AM »
I would say they would have to say something about the amount of rules mastery needed to really get a class to shine.  Like it would be high for the fighter, and wizard low for barbarian, warblade, druid.  Stuff like that.
I agree w/ this.  Especially when it comes to something like Fighter, which is just a random set of feats that you need to, w/ some impressive work, build into something workable.  Spells, as we all know, scale much more easily. 

This is also my biggest gripe w/ the tiers system that others seem more enamored w/ than I am.  I know, I know, it's supposed to be for "equal levels of optimization," but that's a concept I can't really wrap my head around.  I can only really understand it on the level of comparing particular builds, though I know there is some allowance made in the tier charts (e.g., Tordek =/= an ubercharger). 

awaken DM golem

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2011, 08:17:34 PM »
Quote
Fighter: 'Yes, the dress looks very nice on you.'
Having spent a lot of time around low Cha males who treat bluff as a cross-class skill, I can assure you that such lies rarely work.

Perhaps you just know you don't look good in a dress?

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My knowledge (far realms) check was high enough, to find the MardiGras part. 
 

« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 08:19:23 PM by awaken DM golem »

Nameless Void

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2011, 05:40:22 PM »
Quote
Fighter: 'Yes, the dress looks very nice on you.'
Having spent a lot of time around low Cha males who treat bluff as a cross-class skill, I can assure you that such lies rarely work.
I'm a Wizard.

I'll make you believe that you're Aphrodite when you wear that dress

 :D
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Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.

awaken DM golem

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2011, 06:54:07 PM »
The best example of that sort of committee designing is kobolds.

1) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
3) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
5) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
4) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
2) Hey, kobolds are really underpowered.  Let's throw them a bone
6) Kobolds assemble all those bones into a giant dracolich mecha, destroying game balance with their flaming atomic breath.

Something similar happened with Elf subraces.
And Kaj's  :evillaugh

Didn't 4.5e make everybody a Dragonwrought Kobold ? (wink)

Nameless Void

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Re: How would you feel if WotC were up front with classes and their tiers?
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2011, 07:14:04 PM »
Why did you have to go there awaken DM golem?

 :P
Quote from: Solo on MW
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.